Identification required

Harry Hawker · 27 July 2006, 04:33 PM

Can anyone identify the aircraft in these 2 photos please?

The first, I believe to be a Sopwith Dove. But it appears to be in a military scheme from a second-line training unit. Anyone know what / where / when?

The second, a Gotha. Can anyone identify the variant?

Thanks in advance,

Harry.

Graeme · 28 July 2006, 10:09 AM

Harry Hawker

Only 10 Doves were built (all in 1919, I believe) and none saw military service. G-EACM, G-EACU, G-EAFI, G-EAGA and G-EAHP were sold abroad, G-EAJL, G-EAJJ, G-EAKH and G-EAKT were sold to Australia. G-EBKY was converted to a Pup (the Shuttleworth collection's N5180).

No idea about the Gotha.

Graeme

MikeW · 28 July 2006, 11:32 AM

Could the paint scheme on the Dove be construed as a black and white check? (I would have called it diamonds).

An unidentifed Dove was supplied to the Larkin Supply Company of Melbourne on 3rd September 1920. This was reported as being painted in a black and white check.

Mike

Dan_San_Abbott · 28 July 2006, 11:52 AM

Harry Hawker:
This is the Gotha Go.IX, it was a developement of the Gotha Go.VII. the Go.VII had a two bay wings with a span of 19270mm over length of 9630mm and a height of 3510mm. It was two seat, fast reconnaissance/bomber. Following the Go.VII, was the G.VIII which had 2 1/2 bay wings with a span of 21730mm. Finally the Gotha engineers came up with the final developement, the Go.IX. The Go.IX had 3 bay wings that spaned 25260mm and was intended as fast bomber with a two man crew, pilot and gunner.
The G.VII was put into production, Gotha was awarded a contract for 7, s/n G.300 to G.306/18 an 47, s/n G.308 to G.354/18. Aviatik was awarded a contract for 150, s/n G.100/18 to G.149/18.
Of these Aviatik had built by the end of the war, 30 G.VII machines, S/N
G.100/18 to G.129/18.
The G.VIII was not put into production, only the single prototype s/n
G.307/18 was built.
The Gotha G.IX contract was awarded to LVG for 30 Gotha Go.VII(LVG) aircraft,
s/n G.200/18 to G.229/18 and 170 Gotha G.IX (LVG) aircraft, G.230/18 to
G.399/18. LVG apparently delivered at least 5 G.VII(LVG) and 90+GO.IX(LVG) built by the end of the war. They were to replace the Go.G.Va anf Go.G.Vb in service with Boghol III.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Graeme · 28 July 2006, 01:50 PM

I've dug up a note that the Dove made its debut at Hounslow in May 1919, flown by Major W G Barker VC; his passenger was the Prince of Wales. It was designed as a sporting biplane (officially a two-seat tourer).

Four Doves (mentioned in my previous post) were shipped out to Australia in 1920 but as ex-service aircraft were plentiful, sales prospects were bleak. With no new government work available, the Sopwith company went into voluntary liquidation in September 1920 and a number of companies who had relied upon Sopwith contracts followed suit.

Graeme

SCMc · 28 July 2006, 02:50 PM

I only came up with one reference from Google:
http://www.baha.be/Webpages/Navigato...gotha_goIX.htm
It has a couple of pictures, but no specifications. Dan-San said it was a fast reconnaissance/bomber. I was curious what "fast" was. Does anyone know any performance specifications for the plane?

Steve

Dan_San_Abbott · 28 July 2006, 08:09 PM

SCMc:
The performance of the Gotha.G.VII was:

Empty weight:2420kg.
Useful load: 720 kg.
Gross weight: 3140kg.
Bomb load: 5 x 50kg=250kg
Time to climb to:
2000 m= 8min.
4000 m= 21min.
6000 m= 38min.
Service ceilng:7000 meters.
Range: 540km.
Maximum Airspeed: 180km/hr at sea level. ( Gotha G.Vb 135km/hr at S/L.)
Engines: 2 x 245 Ps Maybach MbIVa at Gotha G.VII,
2 x 260 Ps Mercedes D.IVa at AviatikG.VII(Av)
2 x 260 Ps Mercedes D.IVa at LVG.
The Gotha G.VII prototypes were s/n G.550/17. G.551/17 and G.553/17.
Gotha G.VIII 552/17 one of the four prototypes. Only one machines was built.
Gotha G.IX(LVG) I have no performanc data.
After further study, LVG completed it contract for the 30 G.VII and the 170 G.IX bombers.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

MikeW · 29 July 2006, 02:18 AM

Graeme said:

Quote:

With no new government work available, the Sopwith company went into voluntary liquidation in September 1920 and a number of companies who had relied upon Sopwith contracts followed suit

What actually happened was the Government imposed huge "war profiteering" taxes on Sopwith. The company was folded to avoid paying the tax which would have probably bankrupted Sir T.O.M. Sopwith himself. I believe Sopwith paid all his creditors (except the Inland Revenue) before declaring the company bankrupt.

The company was instantly resurrected as the "HG Hawker Engineering Co. Ltd." with Harry Hawker as the "front man" but it was always a Sopwith "show" in those days.

Mike

SCMc · 29 July 2006, 02:59 AM

Thank you Dan-San,
With the 19 m wings, and all those struts, it looked like a high drag design to me, but 180 km/h is reasonably fast for a 2-seater.

Thanks again,
Steve

Graeme · 29 July 2006, 08:01 AM

Mike

You are quite right about the Government's taxation policy (the wartime Ministry of Munition control of profits). However, the 16 September 1920 edition of "Flight" says:

According to an official of the Company, the ultimate decision was taken as the result of the slump in the motor trade [Sopwith had turned to manufacture of the ABC motorcycle]. Valuable orders from all parts of the overseas Dominions and Scandinavia have been cancelled, and this state of affairs, coupled with the competition from America, has made it impossible for a lucrative trade to be carried on. So far as we are able to judge, there is a very wide market for motor vehicles if manufacturers can deliver the goods. It is too much, however, to expect people who have ordered a year or more ago to wait indefinitely for the completion of their orders, and they quite naturally turn elsewhere for fulfilment of their requirements.

So it seems that Sopwith saw what was coming and wound up the company while it was still solvent. Martinsyde, which had also turned to motor production after the Armistice, was not so fortunate and ceased trading; Glendower Aircraft, used to produce Salamanders, was wound up when the production order was cancelled; Kingsbury Aviation produced only 30 Snipes before it went into liquidation; Portholme Aerodrome Ltd, who had relied solely upon Sopwith work, turned to Ruston Proctor for work but later went under; Ruston Proctor, a pre-war manufacturer of agricultural machinery, went back into that business. 1920 was a bad year for British aviation.

Graeme