Help needed with Fokker EV details....

sfb1962 · 22 April 2007, 06:11 AM

Hi,

I'm new to WWI aircraft modelling (and pretty new to aircraft modelling generally) and as my first project I'm doing the Eduard Fokker EV, which seems a good one to cut my teeth on. This site has been a tremendous help and inspiration but I'm now stuck.

I would very much like to depict one of the Jasta 6 planes shown in the famous line-up photo seen in a number of books and other sources. In particular, I'd like to do the 4th plane in line - the one with a stylised lightning bolt on the fuselage. But I can't find any information on this plane's serial number or works number. Does anyone know what they might be?

I had hoped that the planes were numbered in sequence given that the first two are apparently 153/18 (w/n 2794) and 154/18 (w/n 2795) but that doesn't seem to be the case - and would've been far too easy anyway! I have seen it suggested on one website that it might be 157/18 (logically w/n 2798, therefore) but I don't know if that's right (I've seen on the Aerodrome's serial number list that this serial number is listed as belonging to a Jasta 6 Fokker EV flown by Gefr. Kurt Blumener.) Any help in confirming this serial number (and logical works number) or providing alternative details would be gratefully received. And, naturally, if anyone knows the identity of the pilot too that would be even better

Many thanks in anticipation of your help.

Simon

StephenLawson · 22 April 2007, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfb1962

Hi,

I'm new to WWI aircraft modelling (and pretty new to aircraft modelling generally) and as my first project I'm doing the Eduard Fokker EV, which seems a good one to cut my teeth on. This site has been a tremendous help and inspiration but I'm now stuck.

I would very much like to depict one of the Jasta 6 planes shown in the famous line-up photo seen in a number of books and other sources. In particular, I'd like to do the 4th plane in line - the one with a stylised lightning bolt on the fuselage. But I can't find any information on this plane's serial number or works number. Does anyone know what they might be?

I had hoped that the planes were numbered in sequence given that the first two are apparently 153/18 (w/n 2794) and 154/18 (w/n 2795) but that doesn't seem to be the case - and would've been far too easy anyway! I have seen it suggested on one website that it might be 157/18 (logically w/n 2798, therefore) but I don't know if that's right (I've seen on the Aerodrome's serial number list that this serial number is listed as belonging to a Jasta 6 Fokker EV flown by Gefr. Kurt Blumener.) Any help in confirming this serial number (and logical works number) or providing alternative details would be gratefully received. And, naturally, if anyone knows the identity of the pilot too that would be even better

Many thanks in anticipation of your help.

Simon

Greetings sfb1962;
Blumener's machine was probably 152/18. It is known to have a Beobachter's type 4 sided, 4 checker insignia tipped up on a corner.

The zig zag lightning bolt is attributed at being Rolff's.

Images we have of 157/18 show it whithout any personal markings.

Kacey · 22 April 2007, 04:32 PM

Don't know where else to ask these most basic questions, so I'll start here!

When viewing WWI aircraft description data, specifically dimensions, where EXACTLY are these dimensions taken from:

I.E. in quoting the length are we speaking of the tip of the propeller cone or nut back to the farthest rearward projection of the aircraft, or is the front point the face of the aircraft cowling?

I.E. in quoting the height of an aircraft is it the highest most point in a taildragging position, in which case it would be the front leading edge of the upper wing at the apex of the front convexity, or is it the upper wing outter tip while the plane is held in a horizontal postion?

On a lower or mid wing aircraft does this height number become the top point of the rudder/vstab while in a horizontal position, or is it the top of the engine cowling in a taildragging postion?

I.E. I think I know what wingspan is!!!!!!!!

Anyway just basic stuff I've been wondering about!

Hope your all have'n a great day.

KC

StephenLawson · 22 April 2007, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KACEY

Don't know where else to ask these most basic questions, so I'll start here! When viewing WWI aircraft description data, specifically dimensions, where EXACTLY are these dimensions taken from:. . . Anyway just basic stuff I've been wondering about!

Hope your all have'n a great day. KC

Greetings KC;

To help you clear up these issues let me present an image.

This what is called a general arrangement drawing or at least one view of one. Most of the Datafiles will have something similar. The Germans, the British all aircraft manufacturers had these and they have come to us in several methods. Some are original factory drawings others like this one were done when a new type of aircraft was captured. The general specs you usually see with height length and etc are overall dimensions. For instance length usually meant from tip of the prop shaft to the trailing edge of the rudder. Width was longest wing tip to tip. In truth this was just to give you the overall area that the machine occupied when completed.

Hope this helps. Stephen

Colin A Owers · 22 April 2007, 11:25 PM

One of the big problems you have when you draw up an aircraft is knowing where the dimensions are taken from.

If you have a sketch or BB drawing you know, but if you don't, then things like overall length could be in the horizontal position or in the at rest position, that is the tail skid on the ground. Even span is not perfect as some dimensions list the span as panels laid out flat whereas they were mounted with dihedral. Then even "official" drawings get it wrong - eg the Pfalz D.XII BB drawing for overall length.

Height is the least reliable dimension.

You takes what you have and work from there always knowing you may have to revise your drawings at a later date.

Colin A Owers

sfb1962 · 23 April 2007, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StephenLawson

Greetings sfb1962;
Blumener's machine was probably 152/18. It is known to have a Beobachter's type 4 sided, 4 checker insignia tipped up on a corner.

The zig zag lightning bolt is attributed at being Rolff's.

Images we have of 157/18 show it whithout any personal markings.

Stephen,

Many thanks for the helpful information - I can now at least rule out both 157/18 and Blumener. You say that the plane I'm interested in is attributed to Ltn. Emil Rolff - I assume that there is no information or even informed guesswork on its serial number?

Regards
Simon

jtisch · 23 April 2007, 10:45 AM

It may be guesswork, but a fairly often seen set of color profiles shows a ser. no. of X33. The X looks like a 7 but could be a 1 or a 2. Shouldn't be a 7 but it doesn't really like a 1 either, although that would be the most likely. There are other errors in these profiles so I don't know how much faith to place in them.

J

Dan_San_Abbott · 26 April 2007, 04:07 PM

sfb1962:
The serial numbers of the Fok.E.V machines and their personal ibsignia are:
1. Fok.E.V 146/18, white edged black band with white snake line.
2. Fok.E.V 147/18, red band.
3. Fok.E.V 148/18 ??
4. Fok.E.V 152/18, 2 black and 2 white squares standing on a corner surronded with a red border.
5. Fok.E.V 153/18, a w, blk. white, blk, w. band.
6. Fok.E.V 154/18, arrow headed lance.
7. Fok.E.V 157/18, arrow headed lightning flash.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

sfb1962 · 27 April 2007, 01:01 AM

Hi Dan-San,

Many thanks for your help with the serial number and insignia details but I'm now a little bit confused!

Stephen Lawson said that the plane I'm interested in has been attributed to Rolff and that: "Images we have of 157/18 show it without any personal markings". But you suggest that the "lightning flash" plane was indeed 157/18.

Any help in resolving the apparently contradictory information would be much appreciated.

Regards
Simon

Dan_San_Abbott · 27 April 2007, 12:41 PM

Simon:
The first photo of E.V 157/18 was taken before it was marked with the lightning flash. The second with the marking was later after it was marked. No mystery. I believe Jasta 6 received their E.V machines on or about 6 August 1918. They were returned to Armee Flugpark on or about 21 August 1918. The line up shots show 9 E.V machines issued to Jasta 6. From my data we can identify
seven of the nine machines and six with personal markings.
I suspect they also had E.V 150/18 and E.V 151/18. The operative word is "Suspect".
Blue skies.
Dan-San