The Aerodrome Home Page
Aces of WWI
Aircraft of WWI
Books and Film
The Aerodrome Forum
Sign the Guestbook
Help
Links to Other Sites
Medals and Decorations
The Aerodrome News
Search The Aerodrome
Today in History


Learn how to remove ads

The Aerodrome Forum


Go Back   The Aerodrome Forum > WWI Aviation > Aircraft


Aircraft Topics related to WWI aircraft, aircraft engines and armament

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12 May 2007, 05:01 PM   #1 (permalink)
Two-seater Pilot
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 108
 
Fokker E.II/E.III change-over.

I have been researching three different Fokker Eindeckers that were dispatched to the Dardanelles in Nov/Dec 1915 and participated in the closing phases of the battle of Canakkale (Gallipoli). They had the serials 93/15, 96/15, and 108/15. I was wondering whether these would have been E.II or E.III type aircraft? According to Datafile #15 the production batch with serials 86-121/15 was the one where the change from E.II to E.III happened. The highest E.II serial I have found so far is 98/15 (although it was later rebuilt into an E.III) while the lowest E.III serial I know of is 104/15. It seems likely to me that 93 and 95/15 were E.II but 108/15 was an E.III. Can anybody confirm this?

There is also a photo in Datafile #91 (image #52) of an E.II serial 23/15. The caption claims it was being prepared for being flown into Turkey via Bulgaria. Can anybody confirm that this aircraft was actually sent to Turkey? It has an auxiliary fuel tank bolted to the cowling and certainly looks like it might have been the first machine reported to have been flown into Turkey already in September 1915. The problem I have with this is that other sources claim that this fist Fokker had serial 36/15.

P.S. Is there any better literature dealing with the Eindecker than the Datafiles where I might find pictures of the above mentioned birds?

Last edited by Uhlan; 12 May 2007 at 05:16 PM.
Uhlan is offline  
Sponsored Links
Old 12 May 2007, 05:18 PM   #2 (permalink)
Forum Ace
 
YavorD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Posts: 2,648
 
Hi!

Turkish sources provide Fokker production numbers for 12 out of 13 Fokker Eindeckers operated by Ottoman Armed Forces.

Colour profile shows 36/15 as "F1" deployed September 1915.

Regards,
Yavor

http://www.tayyareci.com/digerucakla...1/fokkere1.asp
http://www.tayyareci.com/digerucakla...1/fokkere3.asp
YavorD is online now  
Old 12 May 2007, 06:08 PM   #3 (permalink)
Two-seater Pilot
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 108
 
There is also a profile in Early German Aces of World War 1 by Greg Van Wyngarden from Osprey. It claims 96/15 was Buddecke's aircraft and shows it as an E.III. I am wondering if that is correct. There is a photo on page 27 but I can't tell exactly what the serial prefix is. The date Mr. Van Wyngarden gives for this profile, December 1915, is wrong. Square markings weren't applied to Ottoman aircraft until April 1916. It's still an excellent book though.
Uhlan is offline  
Old 14 May 2007, 05:23 PM   #4 (permalink)
Rest in Peace
 
Dan_San_Abbott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Ceres, California
Posts: 9,119
Images: 22
 

My Gallery
Fok.E.II/E.III.

Uhlan:
The Fokker E.I was derived from the Fokker M.5 and was designated Fok.M.5k powered with a Oberursel U.O 80 Ps
Gnome copy engine. Serial numbers E.1/15 to E.6/15 were designated Fok.E. Commencing with Fokker M.14, werke nr. 252, was designed from scratch as a fighter. It also initially was powered with the Oberursel U.O 80 Ps engine. The span was reduced from 8950mm on the M.5k to 8520mm
on the Fokker M.14. The length was increased from 6750m to 7200m. The height of both was 2400mm. the empty weight was decreased from 358 kg. on the M.5k to 338kg on the M.14. The useful load was increased from 205 kg to 210kg. It was intended to change engines to the 100Ps Oberursel U.I. The Fok.M.14 was designated Fok.E.II. The Fok.E. was re-designated Fok.E.I.
The following machines were Fok.E.II aircraft, 7, 8, 20 to 25, 33 to 36, 37, 43, 46, 62, 65 to 94/15. All other numbers below were Fok.E.I machines.
With the reduced wing area the M.14 did not perform as well as hoped. With Fokker M.14, w.n. 317, the wing span was increased to 9520mm and was applied on Fok.E.II 66/15 and subsequent.
All the Fok.E.II machines from at least Fok.E.II 66/15 were powered with the Oberursel 100 Ps U.I engine.
Fokker M.14 werke nummer 346, was designated Fok.E.III95/15. The Fokker E.II was discontinued. All subsequent production aircraft were Fokker E.III machines until Fok.w.n.373 at which time Fok.M.15 was made and designated Fok.E.IV 122/15. From my data I have 66 Fok.E.I machines, 40 E.IIs, 162 E.III aircraft and 18 Fok.E.IV planes built.
Sorting these machines out was a very difficult process.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Last edited by Dan_San_Abbott; 14 May 2007 at 05:30 PM.
Dan_San_Abbott is offline  
Old 14 May 2007, 08:55 PM   #5 (permalink)
Forum Ace
 
josef scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 758
 
Dan-San

I've been working on an illustrated article on the developement of the early Fokker monoplanes for some time now. I am very curious where I could find the original source material for your dimensional data on the M5 and M14 airframes. There are big discrepencies in the secondary information published (i.e. Grosz, Imrie, Leaman, Brannon, Jarrett, etc.).

Any light you could shed on this would be greatly appreciated.
__________________
Tschüss,
josef
josef scott is offline  
Old 15 May 2007, 01:57 AM   #6 (permalink)
Two-seater Pilot
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 108
 
Dan-San,
Firstly I'd like to thank you for a most informative reply.

I have since dug up an article (OTF Vol. 11 #3) on the Dardanelles Fokker Staffel which claims the following type identities for my four Fokkers:

Fokker E.I 36/15, w.n. 286, Ottoman serial F1.
Fokker E.II 93/15 w.n. 346, Ottoman serial F4.
Fokker E.III 96/15. w.n. 349, Ottoman serial F3.
Fokker E.III 108/15 w.n. 361, Ottoman serial F2.

Then there is the elusive E.II serial 23/15 which doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere except in that Windsock DF and that apparently didn't get an Ottoman AF serial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott View Post
The following machines were Fok.E.II aircraft, 7, 8, 20 to 25, 33 to 36, 37, 43, 46, 62, 65 to 94/15. All other numbers below were Fok.E.I machines.
That confirms the type identity of 23/15 as an E.II but the OTF article got the type identity of 36/15 wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott View Post
All the Fok.E.II machines from at least Fok.E.II 66/15 were powered with the Oberursel 100 Ps U.I engine.
Does this mean there were E.II machines powered by the 80 Ps U.O? I always thought that one of the main differences between the E.I and E.II was the type of engine installed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott View Post
Fokker M.14 werke nummer 346, was designated Fok.E.III95/15. The Fokker E.II was discontinued. All subsequent production aircraft were Fokker E.III machines until Fok.w.n.373 at which time Fok.M.15 was made and designated Fok.E.IV 122/15.
If I recall correctly 98/15 was originally an E.II. There are photos of it both as an E.II and later after it was apparently rebuilt into an E.III in one of the Windsock Datafiles. Another interesting point is that the above mentioned OTF article (which cites a Turkish source) gave the w.n. 346 as corresponding to E.II 93/15. So either they got the serial or the w.n. wrong. This is becoming confusing....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott View Post
Sorting these machines out was a very difficult process.
That I can believe, Fokker seems to have worked very much by-the-seat-of-his-pants.

Regards
Uhlan

Last edited by Uhlan; 15 May 2007 at 04:09 AM.
Uhlan is offline  
Old 17 May 2007, 11:21 AM   #7 (permalink)
Rest in Peace
 
Dan_San_Abbott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Ceres, California
Posts: 9,119
Images: 22
 

My Gallery
Data????

Josef Scott:
The Fokker E.II was defined as a 14 meter machine in "Fokker, The Creative Years" by A.R. Weyl and edited by Jack Bruce at the request of Putnam and Company, Publishers. The Fokker E.I was 14.4 square meters, and the E.III was 16.3 square meters The Fokker Typen Lists do not list the original span of the Fokker E.II. The The E.I and E.II wing panel had 11 bays while the E.III had 12 rib bays. The span was derived from calculations of areas
from published data on the Fok.E.I and E.III wing panel areas..
The type and serial numbers were developed from data from Peter Grosz, Douglas Pardee and my own data and whole lot of photos in books, journals and articles and about twenty years of study. The identities of the E., E.I, E.II, E.III and E.IV was determined by careful analysis of all the data and known production quantities. I am very satisfied with its accuracy.
Blue skies,
Dan-San
Dan_San_Abbott is offline  
Old 17 May 2007, 11:56 AM   #8 (permalink)
Forum Ace
 
YavorD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Posts: 2,648
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott View Post
Uhlan:
...
The following machines were Fok.E.II aircraft, 7, 8, 20 to 25, 33 to 36, 37, 43, 46, 62, 65 to 94/15. All other numbers below were Fok.E.I machines.
...
Blue skies,
Dan-San
Hello Dan-San!

Quote:
Fokker E.I 64/15 was quoted as LFT A.III 03.51.
Fokker E.I 65/15 was quoted as LFT A.III 03.52.
Source:
Grosz, Haddow and Schiemer
Austro-Hungarian Army Aircraft of World War One
Flying Machines Press 2002 (2nd edition)
Looking on available photographs I am not able to find any difference between these two machines. 65/15 was listed in your post as E.II. I would be glad to read your comments about this contradiction!

Regards,
Yavor
YavorD is online now  
Old 17 May 2007, 07:15 PM   #9 (permalink)
Forum Ace
 
josef scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 758
 
Dan-San

I guess I was wondering if Weyl was the source of this information and where he would have gotten it. He is about the only source I haven't read, mostly as he does not seem to be held in very high regard by the recent, more reliable authors. I still must read it though.

In his Fokker E.I/II datafile Peter Grosz refutes the idea that the wings went through so many changes and that once Fokker's initial stock of M5K frames was used up, all subsequent EI's, EII's and EIII's used the M14 airframe with the 12 rib wing, until the M15 airframe was used for the E.IV's (which used the same wing). I must say that, after spending a year and a half pouring over several hundred photos, I agree with him.
__________________
Tschüss,
josef
josef scott is offline  
Old 19 May 2007, 04:47 PM   #10 (permalink)
Rest in Peace
 
Dan_San_Abbott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Ceres, California
Posts: 9,119
Images: 22
 

My Gallery
All were M.14 airframes?????????

Jisef Scott:
I thought Peter was more cautious that to make a statement like that. From the data I have of his, Peter never resolved the E.I E.II and E.III production. Peter did not like lengthy descriptions and trivia. In this case he dismissed the lack of data with a simple answer. I believe in complete detail, Peter doesn't. When I wrote The "Beknighted Rolands", Peter reduced the 49 type pages to 24 pages that went to the editor of Air Enthusiast.
The M.5K airframes were different than the E.II and the early E.II machines were different that the later E.III. The wing changed occured on Fok.E.II 66/15 All the pictures of the E.II had the early side cowling panels as did the early E.III machines. With the production of the E.II (M.14) commencing with E.II 65/15 construction of the E.I was stopped. E.I 63 and 64/15 were the last E.I aircraft until 6Fok.E.I were purchased in October 1915, serial numbers E.I 323/15 to 328/15. I don't know the reason for this order. Commencing with Fok.E.III 400/15, the ammuntion container was moved to inside the fuselage and the left and right side cowlings were in their final form.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Last edited by Dan_San_Abbott; 19 May 2007 at 04:56 PM.
Dan_San_Abbott is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Tags
gallipoli, fokker, eindecker, dardanelles, canakkale


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Plus ca change... Michael Skeet Other WWI Aviation 8 17 March 2004 05:44 AM
Sex Change for Osama Grey 2001 29 21 October 2001 02:41 AM
CAF to change it's name??? How HORRIBLE!! Billy_Bishop 2001 22 15 September 2001 07:50 AM
A Change of Heart PeterL 2001 1 14 September 2001 01:36 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright ©1997 - 2013 The Aerodrome