Triplane N5378

rammjaeger · 19 August 2007, 03:00 AM

Some sources attribute the downing of Triplane N5378 (1 Naval Squadron) to Menckhoff.

What is the original source for a loss or damage of N5378 on 12 October 1917?
Is there any more information available about N5378 or its pilot on this day?

TIA.

Laserlloyd · 19 August 2007, 01:21 PM

rammjaeger:

In "Above The Lines" by our vary own Norman Franks listed Obr.

Carl Menckhoff of Jasta 3 on page 162 for having shot down a Triplane on the 12th of October 1917, location of Zonnebeke at 1020. he has indicated that the Triplane is of 4 Squadron.

I did look a 4 Naval squadron pilots and couldn't find any one shot down on the 12 October 1917. It look like they where equipped with Sopwiths 1 1/2 Strutters, pups and the Camels in June 1917.

Now, 1 Naval did fly Triplanes from January 1917 to November 1917. I did look in "Above the Trenches" under 1 Naval members but no mention of any one being shot down on 12 October 1917. The closest plane number to N5378 was N5373 flown by Capt. H.V Rowley. From the closeness of the plane number I could speculate that N5378 could have been there. Maybe someone else could
fill us in.

Lloyd...

TomVrille · 19 August 2007, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laserlloyd

In "Above The Lines" by our vary own Norman Franks listed Obr.

Carl Menckhoff of Jasta 3 on page 162 for having shot down a Triplane on the 12th of October 1917, location of Zonnebeke at 1020. he has indicated that the Triplane is of 4 Squadron.
Lloyd...

FWIW...In the more recent Osprey publication Sopwith Triplane Aces of World War 1, also by Norman Franks, the Squadron of the Triplane downed near Zonnebeke on 12 October 1917 is listed as "?", as is the serial number of the aircraft.

Laserlloyd · 21 August 2007, 04:11 AM

Hi TomVrille:

I did see that would like to add that there is a photo on page 20 showing the flightline of 1 Naval squadron. There is an reference of N5377 with the number "4" on the side of the fuselage (profile on pg. 35) I'm Sure that if some one had a high res of this photo we might be able to tell which one it is and along with the process of elimination for the known planes I.E N5437-"14", N5472-"17", N534-"F", N5429-"2", N5420-"11", N5387-"15", N5425-"16", N5436-"C", N5454-"1", N5479-"8". This is just a particle list but it should help in finding at lest which one is N5378.

Lloyd...

rammjaeger · 21 August 2007, 04:47 AM

Thank you for your posts, Tom and Lloyd!

I am owning both sources and just this discrepancy between both was causing my thread!

Aren´t there any other Triplane books, , photographs, documents or Triplane pilot´s biographies out there which could help to fill the gape concerning N5378?

TomVrille · 21 August 2007, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

...
Aren´t there any other Triplane books, , photographs, documents or Triplane pilot´s biographies out there which could help to fill the gape concerning N5378?

I looked up N5378 in Royal Navy Aircraft Serials and Units, 1911-1919 by Sturtivant and Page. I'm afraid the fog of confusion only became thicker!

According to this reference, N5378 arrived at Aeroplane Depot Dunkerque on 9 Jun 1917, and was released to 9 Squadron (Naval 9) on 13 June. On 16 Jun 1917, the aircraft 'Crashed on Landing', but was back in action by 17 July, sharing in an 'Out of Control' claim with N5377,N5459,N5475, and N5489. The aircraft was returned to the Depot on 4 August, and reissued to 1 Squadron on 27 September. The next entry indicates that N5378 was transferred to 12 Squadron on 30 November, where it again crashed on landing on 8 December. Little damage appears to have been done, as the aircraft was flying again on 10 December. Deletion was requested on 4 Jan 1918, with the aircraft ending up at Chingford on 28 Jan 1918. This was apparently the last stop for N5378, as the chronology ends with the redesignation of Chingford as the 207 Training Depot Station on 1 April 1918.

So, if this reference is to be believed, N5378 was never shot down, although it seemed to have difficulty with landings!

MikeW · 23 August 2007, 12:32 PM

The excellent Royal Navy Aircraft Serials and Units, 1911-1919 by Sturtivant and Page is to be believed. I don't see your problem.

TomVrille · 23 August 2007, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeW

The excellent Royal Navy Aircraft Serials and Units, 1911-1919 by Sturtivant and Page is to be believed. I don't see your problem.

The problem is the claim that N5378 was shot down while serving with Naval 1, not the detailed aircraft chronology as given in Serials and Units.

Frank_Olynyk · 23 August 2007, 09:50 PM

Quote:

The problem is the claim that N5378 was shot down while serving with Naval 1, not the detailed aircraft chronology as given in Serials and Units.

I don't believe that anyone has claimed that N5378 was shot down while serving with Naval 1. The closest is Lloyd's speculation that it might have served with Naval 1 based on the fact of N5373's service with Naval 1 and the closeness of their serial numbers. This is refuted by the reference to Serials and Units.

Given that a later publication of one of the authors of

Above the Trenches does not indicate a specific victim or unit for the German claim, I think that we can take that as based on more recent research than Above the Trenches, which is now approaching 20 years old (and I believe the original research is twice that).

Frank.