MvR Triplane Fabric Pieces - E-Bay

[tcrean7828]

Mates,

Here is some interesting stuff for sale on E-bay for those of you who have really deep pockets. Item 1 and Item 2:

2493: Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen - (eBay item 180159393675 end time Oct-17-07 14:00:00 PDT)

ITEM 1
2493: Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen
a fabric fragment of his last triplane, the Fokker Dr. I 425/17
Blue-grey linen with traces of red colouring. 85 x 44 mm. Enclosed a copy of C.M. Sadler's cover letter addressed to Günther Josten and dated "6th October 1963", as well as a copy of his military record.
This part of the fabric probably derives from the underside of the aircraft, as its original blue-grey colour was repainted red. When the fabric was cut apart by the allied forces, the red colour largely chipped off and is therefore only existent in traces. Richthof
en's Fokker Dr. I triplane was completely disassembled after it came down, the individual parts can be found today all over the world in museums and private collections: the steering and parts of the frame are for example located at the Australian War Memorial, several fabric fragments are exhibited in the Royal Australian Air Force Museum, the engine is displayed in the Imperial War Museum, London, the seat in the Royal Canadian Military Institute, Toronto, and a number of other remains are in the Omaka Aviation Heritage Museum, New Zealand.
Another very interesting object on the history of air combat in World War I.

2492: Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen - (eBay item 180159393665 end time Oct-17-07 14:00:00 PDT)

Item 2
2492: Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen
a fabric fragment of his last triplane, the Fokker Dr. I 425/17
Red coloured linen. 86 x 59 mm.
On 21st April 1918 the "Red Baron" took off in his Fokker Dr. I triplane from an airfield in Cappy, accompanied by nine other German aircraft. The group was then involved in aerial combat with the Sopwith Camels of the No. 209 Squadron of the RAF, lead by the Canadian Arthur Roy Brown. In the ensuing fight with another Canadian fighter pilot, Wilfrid May, Richthofen was mortally wounded by an Australian machine gunner's bullet.
Provenance: Colonel Günther Josten (recipient of the Knight's Cross) and Commander of the Fighter Squadron 71 (Bundeswehr) Richthofen (30th May 1962 - 1st April 1967). He received the fabric parts in 1963 from the Englishman Cecil Molineux Sadler (born on 12th March 1897), who sent the fragments on the occasion of an annual Richthofen convention, which was initiated soon after the fighter ace's death in 1918. Enclosed Sadler's original cover letter addressed to Günther Josten and dated "6th October 1963", as well as a copy of his military record.
Captain Cecil Molineux Sadler, 7th Battn. Worcester Rgt. After his three brothers had died in battle, his father requested his last surviving son be pulled from direct combat action. He obtained the fabric fragments of Richthofen's triplane in 1918, when he was stationed in Flanders as an escort officer responsible for prisoner transports. Sadler lived until his death in September 1974 in Crowborough, England.
Important object on the history of the German Field Fighters of World War I.


cul

tcrean7828

tom

[Jim]

The provenance with these is pretty meaningless. With something so widely counterfeited as this, unless there is some really serious ironclad provenance that documents in an unquestionable way how the original owner came by it and the chain of possesion down to the present then the likelihood of the fabric being what it is claimed to be is pretty close to zero.

[tcrean7828]

Originally Posted by Jim

The provenance with these is pretty meaningless. With something so widely counterfeited as this, unless there is some really serious ironclad provenance that documents in an unquestionable way how the original owner came by it and the chain of possesion down to the present then the likelihood of the fabric being what it is claimed to be is pretty close to zero.

Jim.

I agree. But just thought that I would toss it out to the lot of you, to take a look at it.

cul

tcrean7828

tom

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Gentlemen:
The color is correct and matches the piece I had, and other bonified pieces. Mine was half that size and sold for twice what they are asking. I would sure like to see the reverse side and check the weave. I had better provenace, traceable to the plane and documented. but from what I have read, it is not bad. It appears to be credible.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Der Grüne Flieger]

Did you see the buyer's premium? It's 22.5%, yikes!

Phil

tcrean,

Thanks for posting that for us...good catch. I would be a little skeptical with some of the things I have seen on Ebay.....MvR's hair and such. Really interesting though and thanks so much....Tim

[LegendaryLoewenhardt]

Originally Posted by Jim

The provenance with these is pretty meaningless. With something so widely counterfeited as this, unless there is some really serious ironclad provenance that documents in an unquestionable way how the original owner came by it and the chain of possession down to the present then the likelihood of the fabric being what it is claimed to be is pretty close to zero.

Jim makes a very important point. E-Bay is filled with this stuff that claims to be real but lacks evidential proof. Unless I see documents that PROVE 100% that the item I'm buying is real AND that it has been evaluated by a professional, I'm not buying in a million years.

No certificate of authenticity: I don't buy.
Certificate of authenticity: I buy.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

LegendaryLoewenhardt:
That is a pretty good advice, following that premise, you'll never get stung!
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[LegendaryLoewenhardt]

I look for documents, when buying that are like, "This --------- is authentic and was evaluated by ----------, a professional in the field of ----------. [signature of evaluator]"

Documents that confirm authenticity also make your document look nicer, in my opinion.

EDIT: Also, such documents can increase the value of the item you've purchased (usually not by a lot, but getting someone well known or respected can REALLY mean your money was well spent; selling is even better!).

[Graeme]

But Lord Hugh Trevor-Roper, professor of Modern History at Oxford University and Master of Peterhouse College, authenticated the Hitler Diaries - didn't make them the real thing.

As in all things, it's a case of caveat emptor.

Graeme