THE HISPANO-SUIZA V-8 718 & 1127c.i. CRANKSHAFT PROBLEMS

[m9a3r5i7o2n]

Ransom E. Olds M.L.: Does not the word "reductor" not merely refer to the gearing set for a geared engine? A Hisso mounting a cannon firing through the propellor hub can't be a direct drive type as far as I can see, so it seems to me they are referring to a geared engine mounting a cannon. Is this your understanding? Ransom


This the first place or time I have heard of the 300 H.P. engine having a reductor designed into it. The reason I put it on the Internet is for that very reason. I find it very unusual that it was not mentioned by Manual Lage. That it was discarded as having too much vibration is not very surprising either in such a large engine. A stroke of 150mm, 20mm longer than a 718 cu. in. engine plus a heaver piston, wrist pin and upper conrod plus they must have been trying to raise the r.p.m to a much higher point may have been the thing that did it in. Altho they did not mention the Primary or Secondary as being the culprit. Which may have been lost with the many other papers.

We must also remember that the larger engine also had the 180 degree crankshaft!
Yours, M. L. Anderson

It is mentioned in the book on page 482 as 43 and a B & S of 140 mm. 8Fa/300. 5.5 C.R. 1,900 r.p.m. but this doesn't seem to agree with the other. ???

[KACEY]

[quote=m9a3r5i7o2n;393103 (Yours, M. L. Anderson

It is mentioned in the book on page 482 as 43 and a B & S of 140 mm. 8Fa/300. 5.5 C.R. 1,900 r.p.m. but this doesn't seem to agree with the other. ???[/QUOTE]

Might I ask what book you are referencing?

This is the FIRST time I have EVER seen a reference to the performance spec's of the EARLY/ORIGINAL Model 42!

You see the EARLY/ORIGINAL Model 42 had a bore & stroke of 140mm, then this was changed to 140/150mm. The way we are more familiar with, and to which most all other reported data refer to. The 8Fa makes perfect sense being the EARLY/ORIGINAL version. However, the Model 43 seems a bit out of place, since the later model is the Model 42.

Anyway, just wondering where this miraculously scare data comes from?

KC

[shackleton]

I am not sure about the earlier engines but certainly when the power output was raised to 200HP and above and the revolutions increased from 1900rpm to 2300 rpm a reduction gear was found to be necessary for propellor efficiency.

HS-8Bb had a reduction gear of 3:4 ratio which would result in the propellor rotating at 1725 rpm with the engine running at 2300 rpm. Going back to prop swinging for starting the fitting of a reduction gear will be obvious if the propellor has to be swung anticlockwise.

Failures in this reduction gear are reported to have been frequent.

[m9a3r5i7o2n]

Start at #88 (permalink) Go from there and follow thru on all the French dialog and that is where it started. I believe that is sometimes called, "From the horse's mouth". I am still trying to find the method that they used in the lubrication of the Canon Modele. Which is why I found it. One must remember that it is a Translation from the French writing. Some of it comes from the book of M. Lage but not very much!
Yours, M.L. Anderson

[m9a3r5i7o2n]

Castrol Austria - Motoröle, Schmierstoffe und Betriebsstoffe für PKW, LKW, Zweirad,Castrol International - Die Chronologie

1911 - "Sunbeam" und "Hispano Suiza" empfehlen für ihre Automobile exklusiv Castrol.

Translation of the above;

In 1911 - "Sunbeam" and "Hispano Suiza" recommend for their cars exclusively Castrol.

Yours, M.L. Anderson

[shackleton]

De Cavel

Thank you for the further information and I have visited the German website Stadt Freital and made an attempt at translating the 4th paragraph. My translation seems to suggest that the plant survived the bombing intact. I'm English though and our foreign language skills are always a bit suspect!

>>
Der Bombenangriff auf Freital-Birkigt vom 24. August 1944 war ein gezieltes Vorhaben. Zwei Fliegerstaffeln mit 78 amerikanischen B-17-Bombern sollten das Zielgebiet anfliegen. Von diesen konnten aus technischen Gründen nur 63 Flieger aufsteigen. Ihre todbringende Last von jeweils 10 Bomben warfen letztendlich 62 Flugzeuge ab. Zerstört werden sollte das Rhenania OSSAG Mineralölwerk (vorher Voltol-Öl-Werk) an der Coschützer Straße nahe der Stadtgrenze zu Dresden. Dort wurden jährlich etwa 6000 Tonnen elektrisch veredelte Spezialschmieröle produziert, die für den Luftwaffeneinsatz in höheren, besonders kalten Luftschichten benötigt wurden. Die Anlagen dieses Unternehmens verfehlte der Luftangriff jedoch, eines der Gebäude steht noch heute etwas abseits der Coschützer Straße. Dafür traf die Wucht der 620 Sprengbomben 241 Menschen und zahlreiche zivile Gebäude. Total zerstört wurden 34 und schwer beschädigt 64 Wohnhäuser einer nahegelegenen Genossenschafts-Wohnsiedlung.
.<<


My translation: “The bombing raid on Freital Birkigt on the 24th of August 1944 was well planned. Seventy-eight American B-17 Flying Fortresses flying in waves were planned to attack the target. Technical problems resulted in only 63 aircraft taking off and 62 actually dropped their load of ten bombs.
The Rhenania OSSAG mineral oil works formerly known as the Voltol Oil Plant stood on the Coschützer road close to the city boundary of Dresden. About 6000 tons of special, electrically improved lubricating oils were produced there annually. The oil was used by the German Air Force for high altitude flying and for use under cold conditions. However, the air strike missed the plant. One of the buildings still stands to this very day just off the Coschützer road. The load of 620 high-explosive bombs killed 241 people and destroyed numerous civilian buildings. Thirty-four homes were totally destroyed and 64 houses of a nearby cooperative development were heavily damaged.”

My translation suggests that the voltol oil plant certainly survived this air raid and may well still have been intact at the end of the war. If it was, almost certainly, the Russians will have dismantled it and taken it back to Russia where, for all we know, they may still be using the process today. Now that Russia is more open in its dealings with the Europe it’s even possible that they might be willing to pay a licence to your family for the process!! Good luck on that!

Thanks again for the interesting information.

regards

[shackleton]

Hi MR

And just a couple of years later -


1914 - Wakefield liefert "Castrol R" an das "Royal Flying Corps".

1914 - Wakefield supplies (actually literally delivers) "Castrol R" to the Royal Flying Corps"

[m9a3r5i7o2n]

Shackleton;
To some people this may seem unimportant but it seems to me that the Better Castor Oil had been invented whether this was using the method of the Belgian company or whether they used slightly different methods is probably not releasable information and is naturally up to them. I would sure like to know the name of the Belgium Professor that was mentioned in the earlier post. And if the two methods result in slightly different Cold Start properties. Also did either one change the Cold Start Efficiency to any great degree? As this would have helped the Broken Copper Pipe Syndrome.

I like the name of Elektrion R. Which makes it sound as if they use electricity to change the Ions somehow. That was real Buck Rogers stuff before Buck Rogers or Flash Gordon. Jules Verne would have loved it.

Yours, M.L. Anderson

[DeCavel]

Originally Posted by m9a3r5i7o2n

Shackleton;
To some people this may seem unimportant but it seems to me that the Better Castor Oil had been invented whether this was using the method of the Belgian company or whether they used slightly different methods is probably not releasable information and is naturally up to them.....

.... I like the name of Elektrion R. Which makes it sound as if they use electricity to change the Ions somehow. That was real Buck Rogers stuff before Buck Rogers or Flash Gordon. Jules Verne would have loved it.

Yours, M.L. Anderson

I don't believe the "better castor oil" was produced using the method from the Belgian Elektrion company as many majors tried to take over the De Cavel & Roegiers Elektrion company untill late '50s or tried to copy the production process. But Elektrion remained strong.
What could be an explanation about the good properties of Castor Oils is that vegetable oils have good lubricity and biodegradability and castor oils in particular have the best Viscosity properties of all vegetable oils (best low viscosity properties & high temperature lubrication).
On the other side, the Elektrion oils (which basically contained the vegetable based additive Elektrion R) were transformed molecularly (by using "electricity" to break the chemical bonds of molecules into free ions & protons, yes you are right)t hrough the production process which gave them even better properties than Castor oils, most of all oxidation resistance and stability. This is why almost every major Aviation company in the world (most of them in Europe) used Elektrion oil for lubrication by 1935 (KLM, Sabena, Lufthansa, Wright Corp., Air France etc...)

So, hope i answered your question,

Best regards,

[m9a3r5i7o2n]

After reading parts of the post below it reveals some of the problems of aircraft engines after WW-1 as to all the problems of lubrication! A very interesting publication! Even tho it doesn't help tracing the problems of the Hispano-Suiza of WW-1.

History of Aircraft Lubricants - Google Book Search

Yours, M.L. Anderson