THE HISPANO-SUIZA V-8 718 & 1127c.i. CRANKSHAFT PROBLEMS

[Ransom E. Olds]

M.L.: I hope this doesn't appear to be carping, but .375 in. is about 9.5 m/m rather than 6.5 m/m. If the original text gave 6.5 m/m this approximates to about a quarter inch. Ransom

[m9a3r5i7o2n]

SEPTEMBER, 1918
XI.—TROUBLE WITH BEARINGS AND OIL
PRESURE TROUBLES.
(Notice this is 9 months after Caquot’s report)

PAGE 23 UNDER MISCELLANEOUS NOTE PARAGRAPTH # 4

The majority of French engines up to the present have not been fitted with Oil Pressure Release Valves. These are, however now being put on.
Note this is only two months before WW-1 was over.
Makes one wonder when the manufacturers were notified.
Page # 24
Reduction Gear Oil Jet.—This Jet, if already not so treated, should be modified so that the large bore is 3mm. bored parallel to within 2mm.of the point of exit of the oil, and the orifice should be 1mm in diameter; the finish of the 3mm. bore should also be slightly undercut the outlet orifice, so as to form a trap for sediment.
( The above part is a part of the pipe that supposedly was broken by the excessive oil pressure caused by the lack of a proper Oil Pressure Relief Valve.)
The above information is from Ministry of Munitions Sept. 1918 revised from (unreadable) Notes of Feb. 1918. (British)

1mm = .039”
2mm = .079”
3mm = .118”

M.L. Anderson

[m9a3r5i7o2n]

M.L.: I hope this doesn't appear to be carping, but .375 in. is about 9.5 m/m rather than 6.5 m/m. If the original text gave 6.5 m/m this approximates to about a quarter inch. Ransom

Not carping just the truth!

M.L. Anderson

[m9a3r5i7o2n]

A copy of, “ Report upon Troubles with 200 H.P. French Hispano in Service”, has come into my hands. Parts of it are missing and other parts are not legible. This is to me is a very valuable piece of information about the geared 718 c.i. Hispano-Suiza engine.

Since it is dated 14th February 1918 this is understandable. I am now recopying this by completely retyping and will in the future place it on DVD rewriteable. However I need pages missing as mine seem to be missing page #2. Old typewritten pages that have been copied the old carbon way are very fragile as we all know.

If anyone has one of these I would appreciate them writing to me if they know any thing about this document.

Yours, M.L. Anderson

[Bletchley]

There is a copy of that document in the British National Archives, Kew (London), call no. AIR 10/442. It is possible to order a photocopy from them, or even a digital copy (more expensive), to be posted to you:

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The National Archives | Shop | Order copies of documents | How to place an order

Bletchley

[m9a3r5i7o2n]

Hispano-Suiza-Brasier 718 c.i. V-8 engines
I calculated it was time to study the failure of the Brasier company’s making of the H-S engine. However there is so little information on the internet that my failure was almost inevitable. It is as if someone or all in the firm wanted to make sure we did not find any information about the company between 1914 and 1919 but early times and up to 1930 some information was available but when the Big Depression hit it was curtain time for the Brasier company.
In 1886 Mors engaged Henri Brasier as Chief Engineer.
The engineer Charles-Henry Brasier (1864-1941) was also born in Ivry-la-Bataille. He invented the V-shaped four cylinders engine for cars and was one of the main race car manufacturers before the First World War. In 1903, he took the cycles manufacturers Richard as a partner and the Richard-Brasier cars won the Gordon Bennett Cup in 1904 and 1905.
The V-4 rear-engined Mors cars of 1897 were an immediate success and when in 1899 Brasier designed a car with a vertical mounted engine the firm struck gold. It was a blow to the company when Brasier left in November 1901 but by then Mors had already established itself as a leader in the automobile world with a run of racing successes culminating in Gabriel's first place driving a 70hp Mors in the heroic 1903 Paris-Madrid race. Such publicity created a strong demand and although output was never large (300 cars in 1903) Mors were in a seller's market and priced accordingly. Profits in 1902 were 1.2-million francs, shareholders received a 15% dividend and again in 1903, but the following year it was down to 6% and this was the last they were ever to receive.

The overall feeling I received from the little information was that Brasier was in general just a poorly run company with little actual experience in running the company in the manufacture of a large engine. And especially one that was of the need of high quality workmanship, material and overall precision. The fact that the French Government even allowed them to manufacture a 718 c.i. aviation engine is a thoro condemnation of the French system of the supplier group.

Yours, M.L. Anderson

[franzkait]

Hisso crank from a Se5a

[m9a3r5i7o2n]

I have been looking and studying this crankshaft for some time but haven’t determined how it was broken but the point of breakage seems to be at one of the main bearings. It makes one wonder just how long the crank was in use and if anyone of knowledge about cranks has figured just what broke it.

One of the documents I have makes a statement about the bearings of the Hispano-Suiza and it seems that Eastwood was right as he even states that it starts as a dull knocking and then the big bang as a rod goes thru the block.
I have been studying the conrod bearing setup from the French book, “Moteur D’Aviation” about the con rods (bielles) page # 15 and it appears that it is not the ordinary Fork and Blade rod setup. It also in a round-about-way states the reason why the Allison Co. had difficulty of developing a bearing insert for the Allison V-12 engines. These engines also used Fork & Blade connecting rods.
Most of the engines used the Blade rod as firmly grasping the insert and the Inside Diameter of the insert rode on the journal of the crankshaft.
The Forked rods rode on the Outside Diameter of the insert and had no bearing material (Babbitt)The sleeve of the bearing insert made by Allison had a great deal of silver and this was just one of the reasons they were so expensive.
Also I do not speak French and therefore I am forced to use Babel and others as an electronic crutch and the accent marks makes it very difficult to understand just what the Frenchman who wrote it is genuinely speaking of! Example below!

He speaks of Babbitt on both the inside and the outside but the only one of the rods that ordinarily needs Babbitt is the Fork Rod.
He also states that there is bronze item but fails to state just what it is that is bronze and just how it works and is it the bearing sleeve and if it is the bearing sleeve why does it need Babbitt on the rod?.
The Coupe longitudinal is good on the Blade rod but doesn’t show the Fork rod in any detail. The crankshaft con rod journal has three holes two of which seem to go thru to the Fork rod and the center goes only to the Blade rod.

Yours, M.L. Anderson

[jumpinjan]

I can't see were the crack propagated either. Here is a Corvair crank that was used in a light sport aircraft. This one had a crack start in the fillet of the crankpin. I think this is from the "flexing" of the crank nose from the procession forces exerted by the prop.

[m9a3r5i7o2n]

I don’t know much about precession forces as I haven’t any data about this! Especially since I study V-8s and not much else.
Both of these crankshafts are almost in the unbelievable category. I do know from my experience in the high pressure field that a small crack can certainly propagate when sufficient forces are involved! In the case of Internal Combustion Piston Engines various vibrations are the causes of many crankshaft failures.

With pressures as high as 15,000 p.s.i.g. in the petroleum field the result is a small destruction of earthquake proportions. Fortunately they developed sonic measures to chart that, an event not likely in a crankshaft turning over a thousand r.p.m..

But, as I stated before, I am trying to analyze the reason that Hispano-Suiza had so much trouble with their connecting rods.
Yours, M.L. Anderson