Breguet Experimental aircraft

[Doc]

Originally Posted by theflyingsultan

Thanks for all your valuable replies! So I can now safely assume that the aircraft is indeed a BE2, version b, c or e.

It appears to me that the two-bladed propeller version was quite rare, no? I wonder what the reason was to fit a number of aircraft with this type of prop? Any ideas?

It may have had something to do with which engine was fitted. The Photos in Hare's book showing two-bladed props all seem to be Hispano-Suiza or OX-5 engined examples. I have no knowledge of it. Doc

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Doc

Hare's book, referred to previously, notes that BE-2c fuselages with BE-2e wings were referred to in France as BE-2F, and that BE-2d fuselages with BE-2e wings were referred to as BE-2G. This was apparently terminology used primarily in France by the RFC HQ,

There is a point which authority defined a new sub-number / letters. The B.E.2 till B.E.2e are apparently sub-letters defined by the Royal Aircraft Factory (?). What to do with other sub-letters, defined by other authorities (RFC, RNAS etc.).

When you look around in contemporary English aviation magazines (Flight, The Aeroplane) I have seen next to nothing of sub-letters in the issues from 1912 - 1918.

Interesting to know who defined those sub-letters, or better still the registration B.E.1, B.E.2, B.E.3 etc.

Cheers

Kees

[Breguet]

I too have pictures of 2-bladed BE2c's with the OX-5 and Hispano-Suiza engines. As regards sub-types I have the following note by Peter Cooksley.

"To clear up maintenance problems, an instruction was issued in early October 1916 stating that all modified BE2c aircraft would be redesignated BE2f and all rebuilt BE2d aircraft would be redesignated BE2g.".

Also IIRC the (Norwegians??)swaped the gunner/pilots position on one BE2 and this was redesignated a BE2h!

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Varese2002

There is a point which authority defined a new sub-number / letters. The B.E.2 till B.E.2e are apparently sub-letters defined by the Royal Aircraft Factory (?). What to do with other sub-letters, defined by other authorities (RFC, RNAS etc.).

When you look around in contemporary English aviation magazines (Flight, The Aeroplane) I have seen next to nothing of sub-letters in the issues from 1912 - 1918.

Interesting to know who defined those sub-letters, or better still the registration B.E.1, B.E.2, B.E.3 etc.

Cheers

Kees

Hart's book notes specifically that "On 2 October 1916 the RFC Headquarters in France instructed that in future B.E.2c fuselages with '2e wings would be designated B.E.2f and that B.E.2d fuselages similarly equipped would henceforth become the B.E.2g. Whenever possible, B.E.2fs would be kept together in the same squadrons. The use of these designations was largely confined to France, although eventually aircraft which had been sent out as B.E.2es were returned to England as '2fs and '2gs." That sounds pretty official to me, as far as these being legitimate terminology. Obviously, not factory-original designations, but pretty official.

As to the other designations, B.E.1 was a term specifically used by the Royal Aircraft Factory, so that seems official. The numbering B.E.2, B.E.3, likewise was pretty official. The Royal Advisory Committee for Aeronautics, in Research and Memorandum No. 59, November 1911, published a list of type classifications for aircraft which was later adopted by the Royal Aircraft Factory. This list included the S.E. series, F.E., B.E., R.E., T.E. (never used), and B.S. aircraft types. Thus, the concept of B.E. designations seems to have arisen from the Advisory Committee for Aeronautics, and was then adopted by the Army and the Royal Aircraft Factory. The B.E. was used to describe general purpose two seat tractor biplanes.

As far as I know, the subletters were normally assigned by the producing factory-- in the case of the B.E. series, by the RAF.

I hope that helps. Doc

[Aquilius]

Originally Posted by theflyingsultan

Thanks for all your valuable replies! So I can now safely assume that the aircraft is indeed a BE2, version b, c or e.

I don´t have this huge amount of reference books by the hand, but to answer your question again, what might be lost here;

• the B.E. 2c and all later subtypes had staggered wings.
• the B.E. 2b and all later ones had ailerons.

So yours is an "(very) early subtype" of the B.E. 2-types.
(did the 2a had wings of unequal span again? - or does the engine cowling make it a 2a?)

As Kees noted, the first B.E. 2 machines had an unequal span, later ones (of the first B.E. 2 without any subtype-letter) were equal span biplanes, like it is to see on your photo.


But it seems you have quite a rare postcard of this aircraft. First I thought, there have been built so many variants, why should a different prop make it that special. But it is a factory picture and not one from "the field". And you´re right - I haven´t seen a two bladed machine too.

Many thanks for sharing this picture.
Oh, and before I forget - to all the others - thank you for clearing up this thing.
I know, I better should double-check facts I found somewhere, before I post them here - but I don´t want to loose my enthusiasm.

Regards

Aquilius

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Aquilius

So yours is an "(very) early subtype" of the B.E. 2-types.
(did the 2a had wings of unequal span again? - or does the engine cowling make it a 2a?)

Aquilius, the B.E.2 gives headaches, as in the beginning every produced B.E.2 was different from the earlier machine. Probably deHavilland made adjustments on the job. Industrial standardisation was not in the minds yet in 1912.

Early in 1912 the first B.E.2 appeared, powered by a 70 h.p. Renault engine. It is difficult to generalize about early B.E.2s, for true standardization had not arrived in 1912, and the type existed in more than one form.

B.E.2 earliest machines

The earliest B.E.2s had wings of unequal span: there was no decking between the seats, but a small cowling was fitted behind the engine and gave some protection to the observer, who occupied the forward seat.

Click on the picture to enlarge !

B.E.2 later machines

Later B.E.2s had wings of equal span, and a short decking was fitted between the seats. There was, however, no cowling behind the engine, and a streamlined gravity tank was mounted high up between the front centre-section struts: the main fuel tank was under the observer's seat. The top decking abaft the pilot's seat was shorter by one bay than that fitted to the B.E.I. The Renault engine was the standard power plant, but B.E.2 No. 205 had at one time an experimental installation of a 60 h.p. E.N.V.

B.E.2a

Detail development proceeded, and the B.E.2A soon appeared, with decking behind the engine and a revised fuel system. The basic airframe remained unchanged. The fabriccovered fuselage had four wooden longerons with wooden spacers, the whole being cross-braced in the customary fashion: a rounded top decking was fitted behind the pilot's seat. The undercarriage had two long parallel skids which projected in front of the airscrew; the axle was bound to the skids by rubber cord, and longitudinal movement of the axle was prevented by radius rods. The wings had wooden spars, ribs, and riblets: these last-named components were about half the chord of the wings in length. Two bays of interplane struts were fitted on each side, and there was no stagger. The tailplane was a large, low-aspect-ratio surface of roughly semicircular plan-form, made in one piece and mounted directly on top of the upper longerons.

All quotes are from J.M. Bruce.

This is as far as I can go with the B.E.2 and B.E.2a on the edge of breakdown

Cheers

Kees