Spoke Wheels, Specifically Halberstadt CL.II

BLOWHARD · 12 July 2008, 09:42 AM

It's been a while since I posted anything about the CL.II profile project, I haven't had much free time.

I'm reasonably sure I've got the spoke lacing pattern wrong, and the wrong amount of spokes too. I have many photos of the CL.II in Poland but none that I can clearly see the spoke pattern. I have a small drawing as well, but again, I can't make out the correct pattern.
Are there any spoke lacing specialists here? Or does anyone know? Were these standardized patterns, or many different patterns? More spokes for two seaters than single seaters?

Also, is this the correct tire for this plane? The CL.IVs in museums have this size.

I don't know if it's too important that I get this correct, but I'd really like it too as correct as possible.

Thanks in advance,
DAVE the BLOWHARD

Dan_San_Abbott · 12 July 2008, 12:08 PM

Dave:
The Halb.Cl.IV used the Type II, 760mm x 100mm wheel and tire. The rim diameter is 574mm x 72.1 wide, has 2 x 16=32 spokes, spoke diameter 4mm. The hub is 160mm long with 55.25mm bore for a 55mm diameter.axle. This is the common wheel for D Class aircraft with 160 ps plus D.III or BMWIIIa engine.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

m9a3r5i7o2n · 12 July 2008, 05:02 PM

Spoked wheels that do not have to brake and accelerate the vehicles that they are attached to do not not require spokes that are angled to one another therefore the spokes of the wheels can be of a different style as compared to wheels that you are not accustomed to.

Go here to see some of the differences of spoke angles! Some believe that this is important in bicycle racing!!!

http://www.duke.edu/~hpgavin/papers/...heel-Paper.pdf

Yours M.L. Anderson

josef scott · 12 July 2008, 07:04 PM

Dave,

Great to see you back! Hope to see more updates!

BLOWHARD · 12 July 2008, 10:46 PM

Thanks guys

I still don't know if I've got the spoke pattern right though

Dan-San, thank you, it's always a pleasure! My tire is only off by 1mm, but my rim is a little farther off at 583mm, that makes a difference! My axel size is off as well, being 75mm. That explains why the overall hub looks big to my eyes!
But I gather that you mean the number of spokes is 32 per wheel, 16 on each side? That's good news because that's what I have. My spokes are oversized by 1mm also but at this scale 1mm being equal to 1 pixel, and being that this isn't meant to be viewed at 1 to 1 scale, but roughly 4 times smaller, 1mm will actually be pretty small. However, 9mm off will be noticeable I think.
Can I ask your opinion Dan-San, does the spoke pattern look right to you?

Mr Anderson, interesting point, but one I hadn't even considered. I knew that there are a great many different lacing patterns, but it never crossed my mind that there would be differences to what is correct for a motorcycle, bicycle and aeroplane. I guess, just knowing that there are different patterns, lead me to not even look at what is common, but rather to try and find out if the pattern used on WW1 German aeroplanes was standardized, and if I had even gotten the pattern right

Josef, thanks for the interest. I have done much much more on the CL.II but nothing seems close enough that I'd want to post it here yet. I want to make adjustments to lights and darks as well as recheck some details. I do have most of the details added to the fuselage and I'm still tinkering with the camouflage.
I do have this, although at the time I did the wheel disk I was under the impression that the wheel had 40 spokes rather than 32! You'll notice 10 spokes protruding through the fabric

But that's how it goes.

And my information on the details is largely from CL.IVs in museums, they seem to have the same wheel arrangements.

Thanks again for the help guys

m9a3r5i7o2n · 13 July 2008, 06:08 AM

Dave: (Quote from DanSan)
The Halb.Cl.IV used the Type II, 760mm x 100mm wheel and tire. The rim diameter is 574mm x 72.1 wide, has 2 x 16=32 spokes, spoke diameter 4mm. The hub is 160mm long with 55.25mm bore for a 55mm diameter axle. This is the common wheel for D Class aircraft with 160 Ps plus D.III or BMWIIIa engine.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Spokes in rims that do not have loading except in the vertical direction do not have to be crossed. As the tangential loading, braking and acceleration becomes greater the more angle and crossing of the spokes is required. Besides they look nifty, or at least a lot of people think so. All kinds of patterns are used but the more the crossing of spokes the more difficult they are to keep clean. This is especially true if they are chromed and not stainless steel. If you live near a bicycle shop I will almost bet that they know a lot about it especially if they cater to cyclists that race. Or even serious cyclists for that matter.
I don’t know about motorcycles as I never rode motorcycles but a lot of old motorcycles had spoked wheels.

Wheels are beautiful and if spoked are certainly in that category and very expensive.

Coker Tire - An Introduction to Coker Tire

Yours, M.L. Anderson

BLOWHARD · 13 July 2008, 10:01 AM

Quote:

a lot of old motorcycles had spoked wheels

IMHO, all REAL motorcycles have spokes, I don't know what those newfangled things are

Flamingo · 14 July 2008, 12:56 AM

Hi BLOWHARD,

in WW1 Aero #163 Peter Grosz published some original Idflieg documents (febr 18) about German wheels.

The number of spokes (Speichen) are:

710x 85 24+16=40
760x100 32+16=48
810x125 32+16=48
965x150 3x24=72 this wheel has 3 rows of spokes and is for G type bombers

There might have been exeptions as in the restoration book of the Alb.D.V in Washington is a photograph of the wheel showing only 40 spokes!

Here are two pictures of the Halb Cl.IV restoration in Berlin:

Hope this of help for your phantastic drawing.

Joachim

Dan_San_Abbott · 14 July 2008, 12:35 PM

Hello Blowhard:
Alfter reading Flamingo's post, I went back and checked some additional data and found I had made a mistake in the number of spokes, there are a total of 40 spokes. Sorry about that.
I translated Anzahl im Feld top mean, Quantity or number in the Field, 32 and 16. I read this to mean, a minimum of 32, but can have 16 more.
In the column Anzahl für Rad, means Quantity for Wheel, 48. This then must be a maximum figure.
After checking some photographs, and the sketches of construction and dimension of the 760mm x 100 mm wheel, I have found I had made a mistake, the 760mm x 100mm wheel has 40 spokes, not thirty-two as I had stated. The number of spokes in plane are 20 and total spokes is 40. The flange outer diameter is 96.5mm and spoke hole center diameter is 80mm.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

BLOWHARD · 14 July 2008, 04:55 PM

Joachim, YES! That's a BIG help. Although now I have more questions, that pattern is still pretty hard to read but it looks more complicated that what I have. It almost seems that there are far more the 10 over and 10 under per wheel side in the closer photo but I just can't follow it. Some of the over and under mounted spokes seem to be coming from the same position???
Now I need to but BIGGER higher resolution photos of a suitable wheel

Dan-San, thanks for the update

I did, as I mention, have 40 spokes. It academic now since so many other parts need correcting as well. Once I have a clear idea about the pattern used I'll get going on the corrections.

Thanks once again guys