Breguet's Aircraft ID Challenge # 436

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Froggy

Bonsoir

Kees thanks to your indication (french aircraft) I think that it is a Ponnier L.1
(only one built) 1 example had been assigned to the CRP just at beginning of war-Ponnier was well known for his Racer plane before war-But he had no success with his planes during ww1

Cordialement
Bruno

Bruno, it is interesting to note that the Ponnier factory in Reims was actually taken by the Germans in August 1914. Their intelligence department certainly will have taken a good look. There is also the possibility that on leaving the factory was destroyed by the French (my guess work).

Quand la guerre éclate, en août 1914, les usines Ponnier de la CMNA à Reims (ex Hanriot) sont prises par les Allemands.

CMNA = Société de Construction de Machines pour la Navigation Aérienne

As often the exact designation gives some different views. Sometimes it is Ponnier or Ponnier-Pagny or Hanriot-Ponnier. Pagny was the designer of Ponnier and Ponnier took over (part of ?) the Hanriot firm.

Cheers

Kees

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Rbailey

Kees - I have only Gray and Thetford to go on, but they show a picture of a rotary engined model designated CI that differs from the B's by a different rudder and was supposedly developed from the BII. The rudder in the other picture from the French source matches the rudder on the G&T picture of the CI.

Hi RBailey. I checked the Gray and Thetford for the Halberstadt C.I. This shows a two seater with the observer in the back seat with a MG. IMO this machine differs from the machines on your second picture. These machines are looking very much like Fokkers, specifically the early M models. Noteworthy is the Fokker comma shaped rudder.

Interesting and certainly rare picture. I hope somewhere lies an original in great quality, but this is what we have now.

I noted a small connection between Fokker and Halberstadt, which is worthy of investigation. The Halberstadt A.II (factory designation F 14) is given as an improved copy of the Fokker M 8. This may give a clue why this machines on your picture look so close to Fokkers.

Source: Lange. Typenhandbuch der deutschen Luftfahrttechnik.

I will have a look in the Halberstadt article published in Cross & Cockade (UK) by Pardee.

Cheers

Kees

[Froggy]

Hello Kees

" it is interesting to note that the Ponnier factory in Reims was actually taken by the Germans in August 1914. Their intelligence department certainly will have taken a good look. There is also the possibility that on leaving the factory was destroyed by the French (my guess work).


Quote:
Quand la guerre éclate, en août 1914, les usines Ponnier de la CMNA à Reims (ex Hanriot) sont prises par les Allemands. "

In 1909 René Hanriot needed partner -so the engeneer Henri Hubert pagny
left Nieuport firm and he enter to hanriot as partner-The firm is now Hanriot-Pagny
In 1912 the firm René Hanriot fell in Bankrupt and is acquired by a Lover of Hanriot planes, Alfred Ponnier-The name of the firm as you write is now CMNA
When the factory fell in german hands in august 1914, rené Hanriot creates a new firm at Lavallois (Paris) "Aeroplanes Hanriot et Cie"-In 1915 he engaged an excellent designer Pierre Dupont (designer of Hanriot HD1 and Pionnier M1 and M2)-The M1 was a Heavy failure and is well known to be responsible of the crash of Nungessser who tested it on 29 january 1916(he broke both legs and once again !his jaw)- I think that René Hanriot was a goood manufacturer
but a bad administrator, and Ponnier had good financial ressources but was a bad manufacturer...

Concerning Pionner L1 , object of this challenge, I would like to apologize to have to give false specifications (i gave in precedent post those of a reconnaissance armored aircraft)

The true specifications of Ponnier P1 (source : Aviafrance, un siècle d'aviation française - Les machines

Span : 8.00 m Lengh : 5.50 m
hight : 2.55 m wing aera : 20.00 m²
crew : 1
empty weight: 260 kg
engine : Gnome 50 hp
Autonomy: 110 km

Cordialement
Bruno

(ps: I post a new challenge ASAP)

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Froggy

--- I think that René Hanriot was a good manufacturer but a bad administrator, and Ponnier had good financial ressources but was a bad manufacturer...
---

Hi Bruno, thanks for the extra information about the 'job-hopping' in those times. You are quite right. To run a business you need a team of people who can do the job. To run an aircraft firm in those times, you needed at least the following talent:

• a designer

• a production oriented man who could organize and plan the manufacturing. Producing the machines within tight limits of cost, money and quality

• a financial business man, who could organize the selling and making good (profitable) deals

The problem is that the whole team must be good. A brilliant example are the brothers Morane (financial and producing) and Raymond Saulnier
(Saulnier the brilliant designer).
There are far more teams which did not work together, examples are here Ponnier and Hanriot.
Special was of course Anthony Fokker who claimed to do all things, but in reality he was the shrewd business man, making brilliant financial profits, but leaving the designing and the production to others. Later he claimed in his autobiography he had done almost everything by himself. A typical distortion of history

Cheers

Kees