Breguet's ID aircraft challenge # 481

[Froggy]

Hello
No problem Breguet You can erase my entire score ( 0.3 Pts)I win on this challenge
I even didn't know who was Alfaro Horatio until this challenge and was not waiting any point for my Guess (was only a joking)

Cordialement
Bruno

[Breguet]

Originally Posted by Froggy

Hello
No problem Breguet You can erase my entire score ( 0.3 Pts)I win on this challenge
I even didn't know who was Alfaro Horatio until this challenge and was not waiting any point for my Guess (was only a joking)

Cordialement
Bruno

You are an honorable Gentleman indeed Monsieur le Frog and your guess, joke or not, out guessed the guessors so - despite your most honorable offer - the ruling and your .15 stands!

[Aquilius]

There hasn´t been anything to hunt in the last two days, so I read again through this thread....

Originally Posted by richard B

I already said :it's neither the #II (I never heard of it )...

Richard, the Alfaro 2 I belive is the monoplane that appears on the link Kees posted.
This aircrcaft is sometimes called “Fournier monoplane” and datet in 1913.
With this 50 hp Gnôme powered monoplane Heraclio Alfaro-Fournier made the first cross-country flight in spain at all (or with a spanish built aircraft??) by flying an estimated distance of 200 km from Madrid to Salamanca in 1914.

It has been part of Breguet's Aircraft ID Challenge #414,
where it was identified as the “Alfaro 1”, what I must doubt after all.

El Alfaro 2 fue el segundo proyecto de diseño y construcción española, con el que su diseñador, Heraclio Alfaro Fournier, hizo el viaje Madrid-Salamanca en 1914. Alfaro ya había sido conocido en 1908 por la construcción de un planeador.

Translation:

The “Alfaro 2” was the second project, designed and constructed in Spain, by the designer Heraclio Alfaro Fournier, who made the Madrid-Salamanca trip with it in 1914. Alfaro had been known before by his glider-construction from 1908.

from: http://www.sepi.es/images/resources/...sp/SEPIN16.pdf


Confusion to me caused the finding of an “1910 Fournier Monoplane” what looks really like a Blériot mono.
(I´m not sure if Heraclio Alfaro-Fournier built a copy of it this time?)
But I found a note that Louis Blériot made the first flight with two passengers ever on June 12th 1909 in his Blériot XII. These passengers were Alberto Santos-Dumont and the french men André Fournier.
Is the “1910 Fournier Monoplane”-picture a result from photographing this André Fournier posing with the Blériot XII?

Fournier or Blériot Monoplane??



Cheers

Aquilius

[Aquilius]

Okay, okay, I always have a lot of questions, but after all I´m not satisfied with this challenge.

(because I haven´t found anything of the [for me] still mysterious “Alfaro 3”)

Richard, can you tell us where you got that picture from?
To all: Does anybody know something more about this plane? Where it was built?




I´ll sum up what I found on Heraclio Alfaro:


On “earlyaviators.com” is mentioned on the HERACLIO ALFARO-FOURNIER site:

"TH-E-2-ALFARO monoplane, together with the TH-E-3-ALFARO, landed in Sabadell in 1919...”
(Caudron G modifications of 1919 (with Hispano-Suiza engines?) in a single and two-seater variant, for sure no monoplanes!)

The designation TH-Alfaro made me look if there was an earlier connection between Alfaro and Telleres Hereter of Barcelona, so:

En 1917 Alfaro ensayó en Cuatro Vientos otro prototipo suyo, el biplano Alfaro 4, con un motor Hispano-Suiza de 140 cv.

Translation:

In 1917 Alfaro tried in Cuatro Vientos [north-western spain] other protoypes, like his biplane Alfaro 4 with 140 hp Hispano-Suiza engine

...another mention of the “Alfaro 4” biplane, powered by a 140 hp Hispano-Suiza.
and:

En el verano de 1917 Hereter y Pujol llegaron a un acuerdo según el cual Hereter adquiría la fábrica y terrenos de San Martín bajo el nombre de “Fábrica Española de Automóviles y Aeroplanos, Talleres Hereter, S.A”.

La muerte de Salvador Hedilla en un accidente de aviación privó al proyecto de uno de sus elementos mas entusiastas y valiosos. Hereter recurrió entonces al ingeniero y piloto Jorge Loring, quien asumió la dirección técnica de la fábrica de aeroplanos, con la inestimable ayuda de Heraclio Alfaro.

Heraclio Alfaro aportó a Talleres Hereter su biplaza de reconocimiento Alfaro 4, y construyó al menos otros dos aparatos de escuela y dos de caza, que recibieron las denominaciones de Alfaro 5 a Alfaro 8.
En el mes de agosto de 1918 salía de la fábrica de Talleres Hereter el primer avión diseñado por Loring, con la denominación de Loring Pujol E.1, provisto de un motor Le Rhône de 60 cv...[/color]

Translation:

In 1917 Hereter and Pujol came to an agreement, according to which Hereter aquired the Pujol factory of San Martin under the name of “Fábrica Española de Automóviles y Aeroplanos, Talleres Hereter, S.A.

The death of Salvador Hedilla in a flight accident ended one of its enthusiastic and valuable projects but Hereter engaged then the engineer and pilot Jorge Loring, who took over the position of the technical director of the aircraft factory, with the inestimable aid of Heraclio Alfaro.

Heraclio Alfaro contributed his reconnaissance two-seater “Alfaro 4” to the Hereter Factories and constructed at least two other training aircraft and two fighters, that got the designation “Alfaro 5” to “Alfaro 8”. In August 1918 the Hereter Factories released the first airplane designed by Loring, with the designation Loring Pujol E.1, powered by a 60 hp LeRhône...

from: http://www.torresquevedo.org/LTQ10/i....4.Utrilla.pdf


...so there are more candidates for the challenge, but I haven´t been able to just find a note of Alfaro’s #3.

Cheers

Aquilius

[richard B]

Hello

At first ,I only knew,when I posted the challenge ,that Alfaro had designed
-the plane of the challenge ,Alfaro III ,1917 .
-a 1919's fighter (since I have seen it in "Green's fighters" Identified as Alfaro VIII
-A little light plane ,Alfaro XI 1924 ,only a 3 views .

This little knowledge comes from Werner von Langsdorff's "Taschenbuch der Luftflotten 1924 " pp 360&361
Generally ,this source is reliable ,but ,nobody is perfect ,and in those days the names given to the planes was not always so accurate : just look at Jane's of the period .

The picture had this legend I am sorry ,I don't know more .
But it was an interresting (and funny ) challenge

[Aquilius]

Thanks Richard, for adding this detail.

I won´t argue with your source, I just want to ask if there is something more to find elsewhere.

It´s very hard to find some publications of aviation from the not warring countries of this time. So I would use the possibility that we can collect some of the stuff here...


Cheers

Aquilius

[Rbailey]

The site http://www.euskomedia.org/aunamendi/8472 gives for Alfaro:
(Machine translation)

"In 1913, he conceives and he constructs the first airplane realised in Spain in the then street of Florida (present Carlos VII) of Vitoria-Gasteiz, is helped by a mechanic, Mr. Romero and a cabinetmaker, Mr. Laprada, next to Larreina and Armentia, the motor of the airplane is proven in the Bullring; its motor snored more than six hours, and finally, before the presence of his friend Ignacio Abreu and the admiration of Vitoria-Gasteiz, in the spring of 1914 it flies over the city. This apparatus was proven in diverse capitals of Spain and Getafe (Madrid), where it is named in 1915 technical advisor of the School of Flights, under the direction of captain Kindelán. In 1916 it makes in Vitoria-Gasteiz his second airplane, winning with him, in Barcelona, the Glass of Catalonia of 1918, in competition with apparatuses and French pilots of the first war. In 1917 march to Barcelona, where it makes four types of airplanes on behalf of the Spanish government. In 1919 he was in charge of the project of the first helicopter of Would fish; this year and in the month of November, Alfonso XIII grants to Fournier the title of Horseman of the Civil Order of Alfonso XII."

After this he went to the US.

Although I have some question about overall accuracy,the 1913 machine must be the monoplane of the first Alfaro challenge. There may not have been a formal (that is, manufacturer's) designation for any of these machines, and if Alfaro built an earlier Bleriot copy, or a glider, that may be counted as the Alfaro 1 by some but not by others.

[Aquilius]

Originally Posted by Rbailey

The site http://www.euskomedia.org/aunamendi/8472 gives for Alfaro:
(Machine translation)

"In 1913, he conceives..."

Rbailey, this is a very rough summery on Heraclio Alfaro.

He is mentioned often to be the first who built an aircraft in spain.

But isn´t the "Barcala-Cierva-Díaz 1 "El Cranjero" flown in 1912 already?



And boys, you are sticking so often to a correct designation for a type.
I don´t want to decide what is Alfaro 1 or 2.
(but what is Alfaro 3 or 4 then)

I just want to clear up of which aircraft we are talking.


Cheers

Aquilius

[Rbailey]

According to "Avions Espanoles desde 1910",the Vilanova-Acedo monoplane was built and flown in 1911. It looked like a Bleriot but with a triangular fuselage. But this book is very incomplete; there is no mention that I could find of the Alfaro machines. Information about early Spanish machines in general seems to be pretty spotty and confused.

[richard B]

One more Alfaro :

Air Warfare Forum :: View topic - Aircraft of Jorge Loring's firm