Breguet's Aircraft ID Challenge # 497

[Dave_Kent]

For your consideration

I acknowledge that this interesting machine is in violation of one of the Rules, and therefore technically illegal. It is, however, compliant in all other aspects and can be found in at least one standard reference on machines of the period. I hope you will accept it.

On another matter, as we approach # 500, I would like to suggest that the winner of Challenge 499 surrender his/her right to select # 500 to Breguet.

Dave

The scoreboard at the start of #497 is

94.0 Varese2002
62.4 Dave_Kent ¤
52.9 Rbailey ¤
21.3 Cruze
17.5 YavorD
16.65 Froggy
14.3 Aquilius
13.3 Rod Filan
9.9 richard B
9.6 Flamingo
8.1 Breguet
7.7 Dan-San
7.7 EdStevens
7.7 matte_kudasai
7.6 trp81
7.4 JohnMacG
7.3 Patrick
7.1 Colin A. Owers
6.7 Ampovandak
6.1 joegertler
6.0 Eric Goedkoop
5.6 ercoupepilot
5.5 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
5.45 GregE
5.3 Crimso
5.3 Der Grüne Flieger
5.2 Doc
5.2 Gilles
5.1 bshatzer
5.0 Tom L
4.7 dpolglaze
4.4 Ross Moorhouse
4.3 edmondthieffry
4.0 greenknight
3.7 Berman
2.5 Gregoire
2.1 Crankcase
2.0 AROTH
2.0 sobrien
2.0 Rickenbaron
1.7 Kilian
1.6 sergio_vitalio
1.3 Cigogne
1.2 Ransom E. Olds
1.0 Albatros_Ace
1.0 airplane176
1.0 austin08
1.0 Brad
1.0 Cliff
1.0 cubsfan4life
1.0 gregorydquist
1.0 Luf-Rick
1.0 Mike Westorp
1.0 paolomiana
1.0 Peter Zambori
1.0 rammjaeger
1.0 Rexee
1.0 SL DIII
0.8 Machinbird
0.8 tbstreet
0.8 toxisch
0.6 Sreiko
0.5 Martin Irvine
0.4 Vilkata
0.3 Nieuport14
0.3 Miroslav Pokorny
0.3 albapfalzd3
0.2 Paul_J._Fisher

Breguet's Aircraft ID Challenge Records: Aeroplanes 1914 - 1918* -* Breguet's Aircraft Challenge* --


The rules :

•The thread title must be "Bréguet's aircraft ID challenge #......"
•The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning and end of each thread so that we know where we are.
•The completed aircraft must have been either; designed, built or have left the ground during the '14-'18 period and be identifiable by the poster.
•The photo must show the whole aircraft - from whatever angle, or at least 2 views of a 3 view drawing (photo by preference).
•Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
(always check the list at earlyaviator.com/br.challenge when in doubt !)
•If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of an aircraft for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the aircraft is submitted.
•Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they become an ACE. Once they become an ACE they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
•To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
•The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
•If an ace gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
•The final arbitor in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.
__________________
I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. - Jorge Luis Borges

[Breguet]

Originally Posted by Dave_Kent

For your consideration

I acknowledge that this interesting machine is in violation of one of the Rules, and therefore technically illegal. It is, however, compliant in all other aspects and can be found in at least one standard reference on machines of the period. I hope you will accept it.

Hi Dave,

In what aspect is it illegal? Just so I can make the correct technical evaluation........

As for Post Number 500 I'm curious to know what other suggestions may be out there on how best to celebrate.

[Varese2002]

The rule is surely

•The completed aircraft must have been either; designed, built or have left the ground during the '14-'18 period and be identifiable by the poster.

It is a probable if the machine left the ground. Maybe it was a fraction of a millimeter . (for a very short distance !). They did not measure it in those times.

Cheers

Kees

[Dave_Kent]

The machine did suffer an accident on its first take-off run and was destroyed, so never left the ground, at least in one piece. Not sure about the pilot.

Dave

[richard B]

It's the " Jan St'astik Dreadnought Nr 1 " bomber built in Prag in 1914 .
2xGnôme 100hp .
Totally destroyed at its first take off (21/10/14 ) at Fischamend .

[Dave_Kent]

Hello Richard:

Yes, it is the Stastuk Dreadnaught, which features an early use of the pusher / puller engine layout for a twin-engine aircraft. The idea pops up from time to time, machines like the Dornier Do 335 and Fokker XXIII being notable examples.

Over to you Richard

Dave

The scoreboard at the end of #497 is

94.0 Varese2002
62.4 Dave_Kent ¤
52.9 Rbailey ¤
21.3 Cruze
17.5 YavorD
16.65 Froggy
14.3 Aquilius
13.3 Rod Filan
10.9 richard B
9.6 Flamingo
8.1 Breguet
7.7 Dan-San
7.7 EdStevens
7.7 matte_kudasai
7.6 trp81
7.4 JohnMacG
7.3 Patrick
7.1 Colin A. Owers
6.7 Ampovandak
6.1 joegertler
6.0 Eric Goedkoop
5.6 ercoupepilot
5.5 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
5.45 GregE
5.3 Crimso
5.3 Der Grüne Flieger
5.2 Doc
5.2 Gilles
5.1 bshatzer
5.0 Tom L
4.7 dpolglaze
4.4 Ross Moorhouse
4.3 edmondthieffry
4.0 greenknight
3.7 Berman
2.5 Gregoire
2.1 Crankcase
2.0 AROTH
2.0 sobrien
2.0 Rickenbaron
1.7 Kilian
1.6 sergio_vitalio
1.3 Cigogne
1.2 Ransom E. Olds
1.0 Albatros_Ace
1.0 airplane176
1.0 austin08
1.0 Brad
1.0 Cliff
1.0 cubsfan4life
1.0 gregorydquist
1.0 Luf-Rick
1.0 Mike Westorp
1.0 paolomiana
1.0 Peter Zambori
1.0 rammjaeger
1.0 Rexee
1.0 SL DIII
0.8 Machinbird
0.8 tbstreet
0.8 toxisch
0.6 Sreiko
0.5 Martin Irvine
0.4 Vilkata
0.3 Nieuport14
0.3 Miroslav Pokorny
0.3 albapfalzd3
0.2 Paul_J._Fisher

Breguet's Aircraft ID Challenge Records: Aeroplanes 1914 - 1918* -* Breguet's Aircraft Challenge* --

The rules :

•The thread title must be "Bréguet's aircraft ID challenge #......"
•The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning and end of each thread so that we know where we are.
•The completed aircraft must have been either; designed, built or have left the ground during the '14-'18 period and be identifiable by the poster.
•The photo must show the whole aircraft - from whatever angle, or at least 2 views of a 3 view drawing (photo by preference).
•Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
(always check the list at earlyaviator.com/br.challenge when in doubt !)
•If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of an aircraft for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the aircraft is submitted.
•Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they become an ACE. Once they become an ACE they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
•To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
•The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
•If an ace gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
•The final arbitor in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.
__________________
I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. - Jorge Luis Borges

[Aquilius]

Flight 1915 told this enclosed cabin design of the Staštík Schlachtschiff No.1 was influenced by the big Sikorsky bilpanes. It was intended to carry "a few men and plenty of bombs".
The entry ends : The result was a somersault, from
which only the pilot escaped intact, the machine being
thoroughly smashed. It is rumoured that, as he was
worming his way out of the maze of splintered struts and
coils of cable, the unlucky pilot muttered " Gott strafe
Sikorsky."

Do you have a better photograph of it?


And for the ruling, doesn´t it say

•The completed aircraft must have been either; designed, built or have left the ground during the '14-'18 period and be identifiable by the poster.

We had several other challenges here. What about the Robey-Peters Tractor Scout of #187 then, that didn´t even got an engine?


Cheers

Aquilius

[richard B]

hello
I am not english speaking ,and I wonder :
About the rules ,does an airplane having left the ground before 1914 and flying
in 1914 ...etc violates the Rules or not ?

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by richard B

hello
I am not english speaking ,and I wonder :
About the rules ,does an airplane having left the ground before 1914 and flying
in 1914 ...etc violates the Rules or not ?

Hi Richard, that makes two of us, I am not a native English speaker either , but to take this lawyer issue on it there are three conditions

- Condition 1: Design date

- Condition 2: Built date

- Condition 3: Leaving the ground

Condition 3 must always be met, but Condition 1 OR Condition 2 must meet the condition 'during the '14-'18 period.

So in Boolean logic it is (for the mathematicians) -

((Design date OR Built date) = during the '14-'18 period) AND (Leaving the ground)

OR

((Leaving the ground) = during the '14-'18 period)

I think this is the right Boolean expression, please Yavor or Paolo review this.

In normal terms this means that:

- a machine designed in 1918 and leaving the ground is RIGHT even if the machine was finished in 1920 and then left the ground

- a machine being built in 1918 and leaving the ground in 1919 is RIGHT

- a machine designed and built in 1912 but still leaving the ground in 1915 is RIGHT

- any machine leaving the ground in the 1914-18 period (the last expression)

Hope this clears the matter for now and ever

Cheers

Kees

[richard B]

Thanks Varese
It's Ok for me