Breguet's Aircraft ID Challenge #505

[Aquilius]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

welcome to the 505th edition of Breguet’s Aircraft ID Challenge!

It seems to refine your hunting tactics is more and more important among the aces, when they are circling round the target. We´ll see how it ends up this time.

I found an apropriate photograph of another UFO I can´t resist to present you.

Who can tell me what it is, where the shot was taken and who designed it?


The scoreboard after challenge #504 is:

94.20 Varese2002☼
64.40 Dave_Kent☼
52.90 Rbailey☼
30.30 Cruze☼
17.50 Yavor
16.65 Froggy
15.30 Aquilius
13.30 Rod Filan
10.90 richard B
10.60 Flamingo
08.50 matte_kudasai
08.10 Breguet
07.70 Dan-San
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.40 JohnMacG
07.30 Patrick
07.10 Colin A. Owers
06.70 Ampovandak
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.50 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
05.45 GregE
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Doc
05.20 Gilles
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 Tom L 12hours waiting
04.70 dpolglaze No waiting
04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.00 greenknight
03.70 Berman
02.50 Gregoire
02.10 Crankcase
02.00 AROTH
02.00 sobrien
02.00 Rickenbaron
01.70 Kilian
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.30 Cigogne
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 airplane176
01.00 Albatros_Ace
01.00 austin08
01.00 Brad
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Luf-Rick
01.00 Mike Westorp
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 Rexee
01.00 SL DIII
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd3
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14
00.20 Paul_J._Fisher

Previous challenges were: Aeroplanes 1914 - 1918* -* Breguet's Aircraft Challenge* --

The rules :

•The thread title must be "Breguet's aircraft ID challenge #......"
•The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning and end of each thread so that we know where we are.
•The completed aircraft must have been either; designed, built or have left the ground during the '14-'18 period and be identifiable by the poster.
•The photo must show the whole aircraft - from whatever angle, or at least 2 views of a 3 view drawing (photo by preference).
•Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
(always check the list at earlyaviator.com/br.challenge when in doubt !)
•If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of an aircraft for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the aircraft is submitted.
•Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they become an ACE. Once they become an ACE they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
•To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
•The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
•If an ace gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
•The final arbitor in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.

Oh, not to forget , here is the UFO:




Have a good hunt!

Cheers

Aquilius

[Rbailey]

Could it be the South-African Paterson biplane? The undercarriage looks very like, as does the strut pattern..

[Aquilius]

Well, I didn´t expected that answer so soon.

Marvellous recognition, Rbailey!

It took me quite a while to find a suitable picture that fulfills the requirements for the challenge. Here is a closer shot with Paterson in the front.


Only, you might know that you make me happy if you present some more details. And till now, all of my questions are not answered completely!

• Which machine is presented here ?
(what are the differences to other designs - not part of the score)

• Where has it been photographed ?

• Who designed it ?
(I want to read the complete, or almost complete name of the designer)


There are only a few steps to go.
I will offer what I have of its story later.

Cheers

Aquilius

[FOKKERJ]

Greetings Aquilius,

I see that nobody has properly identified this great mystery machine yet, LUCKY ME!


I would know this anywhere. It's the seventh prototype 1918 Flütterbuggeren!
It was designed and built by my Great Aunt Fanny Bockmeister and piloted by her fifth husband, Great Uncle Otto (her first three husbands crashed and burned, the fourth wouldn't eat his mushrooms!). The main difference and most easily identifiable feature between this machine and the previous six is that this one didn't crash and burn! It is seen here during it's maiden flight over Hannover where it went into warp speed and disappeared. It is presently circling over Hannover looking for a place to land. That's about all I have to say about that!

HAPPY TRAILS, FOKKERJ

[Catfish]

Hello all,

i did not find this plane anywhere lol.

Originally Posted by FOKKERJ

Greetings Aquilius,

I see that nobody has properly identified this great mystery machine yet, LUCKY ME!


I would know this anywhere. [...]
It is seen here during it's maiden flight over Hannover where it went into warp speed and disappeared. It is presently circling over Hannover looking for a place to land. That's about all I have to say about that!

HAPPY TRAILS, FOKKERJ

Jay, you must be right, us Hannoverians are puzzled where this tiny humming and circling dot came from some 4 hours ago, that is currently confusing HAJ airtraffic control ..

Greetings,
Catfish

[Rbailey]

Compton Cecil Paterson designed and had built 2 machines of the "boxkite" style in England before going to South Africa where he built 2 more. One had a front elevator while the other is the one shown. They were used to train the first South African military pilots, and when that was done in December 1913, the school was disbanded. Shortly after, Paterson returned to England. There are a couple of pictures in Flight; I will find them and post the reference later.

Here are the Flight references, plus another on S.A. aviation history that gives some other details. Incidentally, Paterson is usually given as Cecil Compton, although I think Goodall and Tagg have it the other way round.
It is also possible that the machine here was not built by Paterson, but obtained by him from someone named Carpenter (but still might have been a Paterson design). At any rate it is not the Paterson No. 36 rebuild that has the front elevator and exists as a replica in a South African museum.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchi...=south-african

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchi...=south-african


They Mounted up as Eagles - South African Military History Society - Journal

[Aquilius]

You have it!

I don´t know where the No.36 comes from. I think this is rather a kind of serial. The replica is often named Paterson Biplane No.2 beeing the second type he built in South-Africa.
So according to his first design in Britain one can say we were looking at the "Paterson Biplane No.3".

The englishmen Cecil Comton Paterson built his first biplane in Liverpool in 1910, a Curtiss-type pusher with tricycle landing gear.

(flight 1910, May 28)

In Dezember 1911 he went to South-Africa presenting his Farman-type biplane, powered by a 50 hp Gnôme with the elevator in front. I don´t know if he imported it. There is one mention of it built by the purpose of the newly formed “African Aviaton Syndicate”.

(South African Military History Society)

In 1912 the Syndicate built another Paterson pusher and a second Blériot-type of Alfred Louis Raison. It had 4 aircraft then. What happened to the monoplanes is not known, but to include a third name in the story; John Weston founded the “John Weston Aviation Company” in Kimberly, in mid 1911. Weston built Farman copies and established an “Aerodrome” at Kimberly, but lost his facilities and aircraft in a fire early in 1913. That made some businessmen of Kimberly to buy up the Syndicate and make Paterson to settle down at Kimberly. There he founded a flying school and got some work in September 1913 when the Union Government wanted to found the “South African Aviation Corps” (Later SAAF) and employed him as a trainer for their military pilots.

Now to our challenge biplane:

There were two crashes in Oktober 1913, one with a student and Paterson himself, the other with co-instructor Edward Wallace Cheeseman, who died 4 days after of his injuries in complication with Malaria.
Paterson built a new biplane out of the wrecks, this time with the elevator placed at the tail.
His flying school was closed in January 1914 and Paterson went back to England, where also his students got their pilot licenses. His aircraft and all spares were purchased by the Defence Headquarter, but it hasen`t seen any operational duty.

So one can call this the first original South-African built aircraft and probably the only african one for the challenge...

We haven´t been on that continent till now!

[Aquilius]

Of course you earn a full score!

So the new scoreboard is:

94.20 Varese2002 ☼
64.40 Dave_Kent ☼
53.90 Rbailey ☼
30.30 Cruze ☼
17.50 YavorD
16.65 Froggy
15.30 Aquilius
13.30 Rod Filan
10.90 richard B
10.60 Flamingo
08.50 matte_kudasai
08.10 Breguet
07.70 Dan-San
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.40 JohnMacG
07.30 Patrick
07.10 Colin A. Owers
06.70 Ampovandak
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.50 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
05.45 GregE
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Doc
05.20 Gilles
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 Tom L 12hours waiting
04.70 dpolglaze No waiting
04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.00 greenknight
03.70 Berman
02.50 Gregoire
02.10 Crankcase
02.00 AROTH
02.00 sobrien
02.00 Rickenbaron
01.70 Kilian
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.30 Cigogne
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 airplane176
01.00 Albatros_Ace
01.00 austin08
01.00 Brad
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Luf-Rick
01.00 Mike Westorp
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 Rexee
01.00 SL DIII
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd3
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14
00.20 Paul_J._Fisher

Previous challenges: Aeroplanes 1914 - 1918* -* Breguet's Aircraft Challenge* --

The rules :

•The thread title must be "Breguet's aircraft ID challenge #......"
•The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning and end of each thread so that we know where we are.
•The completed aircraft must have been either; designed, built or have left the ground during the '14-'18 period and be identifiable by the poster.
•The photo must show the whole aircraft - from whatever angle, or at least 2 views of a 3 view drawing (photo by preference).
•Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
(always check the list at earlyaviator.com/br.challenge when in doubt !)
•If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of an aircraft for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the aircraft is submitted.
•Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they become an ACE. Once they become an ACE they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
•To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
•The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
•If an ace gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
•The final arbitor in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.

I hope you had some fun with it.
And I hand the moderation over to you, Rbailey!


Cheers

Aquilius

[Aquilius]

Originally Posted by FOKKERJ

Greetings Aquilius,

I see that nobody has properly identified this great mystery machine yet, LUCKY ME!


I would know this anywhere. It's the seventh prototype 1918 Flütterbuggeren!
It was designed and built by my Great Aunt Fanny Bockmeister and piloted by her fifth husband, Great Uncle Otto (her first three husbands crashed and burned, the fourth wouldn't eat his mushrooms!). The main difference and most easily identifiable feature between this machine and the previous six is that this one didn't crash and burn! It is seen here during it's maiden flight over Hannover where it went into warp speed and disappeared. It is presently circling over Hannover looking for a place to land. That's about all I have to say about that!

HAPPY TRAILS, FOKKERJ

Thanks FokkerJ for your ID of that "Flutterbug"!
(is that what you mean?)

I have it first flown on an US-Aero-Show in the early 1920's but didn´t know what it was until now. Normally I would admit a full score to you, but I`m fearing Breguets judgement by stretching the challenge over both rims of the time-frame.

Seems your aunt did not had much luck with men, or maybe she had?
It depends on the piont of view.
Did she flew to the US just after WW1? So your roots belong to Hannover?
Or is it just your uncle Otto who tries to fly home after all, still today?


Cheers

Aquilius

[Rbailey]

I can't add anything about the Flütterbuggeren 7, but I had thought of the Paterson as a possible challenge, but was not sure it flew as late as 1914. It is surely the first African machine of the challenge, but not the first South African-built aeroplane:

" The first successful South African aircraft was built by Frenchman Alfred Louis Raison, who had previously run a bicycle shop in Zeerust, Western Transvaal. Cecil Bredell of Johannesburg acquired a Jap V engine and commissioned Raison to design and build an air craft. Raison’s brother was employed at the Bleriot factory in France and the aircraft generally resembled the Bleriot cross-channel type, but was much lighter (181 kg as against 272 kg). It was a monoplane with a 9-metre wingspan, with a framework 8 metres long, and, to quote the Rand Daily Mail of 2 May 1911 ‘beautifully put together’. On 30 April 1911 it first flew at Highlands North, Johannesburg, piloted by Bredell, and was later flown by M.L. Webster. Born in 1883, Raison died in 1964, having lived through the progress of aeronautics from balloons to spacecraft in less than 80 years.

Adolf Brunett is reputed to have built an aircraft, and flown it at Rosebank, Johannesburg, on 20 May 1911"

Goodall and Tagg give some further information about Paterson and his machines; actual designations seem quite fuzzy or non-existant.