Breguet's aircraft ID challenge #507

[cruze]

Breguet's aircraft ID challenge #507

Hello

Here is the new challenge, hard or easy I have no ideas :



Cheers

Laurent


Scoreboard after challenge #506 is:

94.20 Varese2002 ☼
64.40 Dave_Kent ☼
53.90 Rbailey ☼
31.30 Cruze ☼
17.50 YavorD
16.65 Froggy
15.30 Aquilius
13.30 Rod Filan
10.90 richard B
10.60 Flamingo
08.50 matte_kudasai
08.10 Breguet
07.70 Dan-San
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.40 JohnMacG
07.30 Patrick
07.10 Colin A. Owers
06.70 Ampovandak
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.50 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
05.45 GregE
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Doc
05.20 Gilles
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 Tom L 12hours waiting
04.70 dpolglaze No waiting
04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.00 greenknight
03.70 Berman
02.50 Gregoire
02.10 Crankcase
02.00 AROTH
02.00 sobrien
02.00 Rickenbaron
01.70 Kilian
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.30 Cigogne
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 airplane176
01.00 Albatros_Ace
01.00 austin08
01.00 Brad
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Luf-Rick
01.00 Mike Westorp
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 Rexee
01.00 SL DIII
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd3
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14
00.20 Paul_J._Fisher

Previous Breguet's Aircraft Challenge

The rules :

•The thread title must be "Bréguet's aircraft ID challenge #......"
•The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning and end of each thread so that we know where we are.
•The completed aircraft must have been either; designed, built or have left the ground during the '14-'18 period and be identifiable by the poster.
•The photo must show the whole aircraft - from whatever angle, or at least 2 views of a 3 view drawing (photo by preference).
•Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
(always check the list at earlyaviator.com/br.challenge when in doubt !)
•If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of an aircraft for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the aircraft is submitted.
•Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they become an ACE. Once they become an ACE they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
•To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
•The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
•If an ace gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
•The final arbitor in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.

[AROTH]

Perry Beadle T1 Biplane. Anzani radial.

This is according to the same picture in my copy of "British before the Great War" (unless that is miscaptioned)


Other than that for ID, I have no more.

[Varese2002]

The Perry Beadle Tractor biplane of 1914, which can be distinguished by its three-bay wings of unequal span, fuselage mounted between the wings (always a difficult construction) and its distinctive Anzani 45 hp radial engine (no rotary).
This machine was designed by the American J.W. Carr who had already worked with the Deperdussin company in Paris, later to go as the assistant to Koolhoven at British Deperdussin.

The Perry Beadle Tractor [sometimes also called the Perry Tractor Biplane) was first flown at Brooklands on June 26, 1914. It was impressed in RNAS service as No. 1322. The machine crashed on March 21, 1915 being written off.

Picture shows the machine at Brooklands.

This is another picture of this unique plane, showing the machine in a later configuration with equal wings and without the end struts which connected the wings at 45 degrees. Still wings with 3 bays. So even during its short existence it was modified quite extensively.



Cheers

Kees

[Rbailey]

This is an interesting specimen. According to Goodall and Tagg (the only reference I have for this), the machine shown in Kees post was a modification of the 1913 T.1 and designated T.2. The picture of the biplane which is captioned T.1 in G and T is of the machine shown in the original challenge, but it does not fit the description given - it fits the description of the 1914 T.2. I had the impression that this was an essentially new machine rather than just a modification, but Kees may have better information. Flight also shows this machine in the 1914 aero show, but I don't think they give a designation.

[cruze]

Hello

The picture of the challenge comes from Royal Navy Aircraft serials and units 1911-1919 and for Sturtivant and Page the plane is the Perry Tractor biplane.

When I posted the challenge I only had Sturtivant & Page's book, but since, I have received Goodall and Tagg's book (less then 2 hours ago).
As Rbailey said in Goodall and Tagg's book, the caption doesn't fit with the description !
From simple, it's now a little bit confusing...

Premonitory ?

Originally Posted by AROTH

Perry Beadle T1 Biplane. (...) unless that is miscaptioned (...)

It would be interesting to know a little more.

Originally Posted by Varesse2002

This machine was designed by the American J.W. Carr

There is nothing on J.W. Carr as the designer in the 2 books, can you say more about your source ?

By the way AROTH will have the honor to post challenge #508 as he first gave the name of the plane (or part of it ?). I just wonder now how I will divide the point (if I do so)...

Laurent

Source :
(1) - Royal Navy Aircraft serials and units 1911-1919, R. Sturtivant & G. Page, A.B. Publication, 1992
(2) - British Aircraft before the Great War, M.H. Googhall & A.E. Tagg, Schiffer Publication Ltd, 2001

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by cruze

----
There is nothing on J.W. Carr as the designer in the 2 books, can you say more about your source ?
-----
Laurent

Source :
(1) - Royal Navy Aircraft serials and units 1911-1919, R. Sturtivant & G. Page, A.B. Publication, 1992
(2) - British Aircraft before the Great War, M.H. Googhall & A.E. Tagg, Schiffer Publication Ltd, 2001

Hi Laurent, the reference to J.W.Carr is in J.M.Bruce. War planes of the first world war. Fighters, volume 1. 1965

p. 135-136

. In 1917 the Mann Egerton Type H was designed by J.W.Carr, an American who before the war had worked for the Deperdussin company in Paris, subsequently becoming Koolhoven's assistant with the British Deperdussin firm. He had also designed the Perry Beadle biplane of 1914.

Till now I have found no reference to J.W.Carr in contemporary Flight issues.

Cheers

Kees

[Varese2002]

Comparing the two pictures showing the Perry Beadle Tractor Biplane in different incarnations it is easy to see that the machines are related but have considerable difficulties:

• The fuselage built between the wings and in the other version resting on the lower wing

• the wings - equal span 3-bay and unequal span 3-bay. The longer upper wing has extra connecting rods

• the ailerons of the longer upper wing version are bigger and different from the ones on the smaller upper wing

• the engines seem to differ, an Anzani 7-cylinder on the unequal wing version and (may be) a 3-cylinder Anzani (?) on the other version - cylinder can be seen right pointing up

• lower wing construction is different, large incision on the unequal span plane

In Peter Lewis - British aircraft 1809 - 1914 (Putnam 1962) it is quoted that the Perry Beadle Biplane was in Brooklands for testing in May 1914. During June 1914, the machine was flown by M.F. Glew and its undercarriage was wrecked in an accident at the end of the same month.

It may be that the machine started as a 3-bay tractor biplane with equal wings etc., but after the accident was modified as the unequal span model with various other modifications.

The end for the machine came in March 1915 as already told.

Beware, there are not many hard facts here, just what can be deduced from the pictures. But it seems clear to me that these are not two different machines, but the same airframe in different incarnations.

Cheers

Kees

[cruze]

Well, I guess there's still a lot to find on this nice little plane
According to Goodhall & Tagg, a catalogue with photograph(s) was issued by Perry, Beadle & Co, could be interesting to find it...

It is time to give the points :
- 0.7 point and next challenge for AROTH for being the first to find the name of the plane (or part of it),
- 0.3 point for Kees for giving us more details on that aircraft.

Cheers

Laurent


Scoreboard after challenge #507 is:

94.50 Varese2002 ☼
64.40 Dave_Kent ☼
53.90 Rbailey ☼
31.30 Cruze ☼
17.50 YavorD
16.65 Froggy
15.30 Aquilius
13.30 Rod Filan
10.90 richard B
10.60 Flamingo
08.50 matte_kudasai
08.10 Breguet
07.70 Dan-San
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.40 JohnMacG
07.30 Patrick
07.10 Colin A. Owers
06.70 Ampovandak
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.50 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
05.45 GregE
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Doc
05.20 Gilles
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 Tom L 12hours waiting
04.70 dpolglaze No waiting
04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.00 greenknight
03.70 Berman
02.50 Gregoire
02.10 Crankcase
02.70 AROTH
02.00 sobrien
02.00 Rickenbaron
01.70 Kilian
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.30 Cigogne
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 airplane176
01.00 Albatros_Ace
01.00 austin08
01.00 Brad
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Luf-Rick
01.00 Mike Westorp
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 Rexee
01.00 SL DIII
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd3
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14
00.20 Paul_J._Fisher

Previous Breguet's Aircraft Challenge

The rules :

•The thread title must be "Bréguet's aircraft ID challenge #......"
•The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning and end of each thread so that we know where we are.
•The completed aircraft must have been either; designed, built or have left the ground during the '14-'18 period and be identifiable by the poster.
•The photo must show the whole aircraft - from whatever angle, or at least 2 views of a 3 view drawing (photo by preference).
•Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
(always check the list at earlyaviator.com/br.challenge when in doubt !)
•If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of an aircraft for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the aircraft is submitted.
•Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they become an ACE. Once they become an ACE they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
•To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
•The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
•If an ace gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
•The final arbitor in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.

[Rbailey]

According to Goodall and Tagg, the 1914 T.2 had a 45 hp six cylinder Anzani. Except for the 3 cylinder version, Anzani's in general had an even number of cylinders.

[AROTH]

Kees may go ahead and have the next challenge, if he is willing - I'm just here to have fun and learn !