Breguet's Aircraft ID Challenge #512

[YavorD]

Rbailey beet me with a couple of seconds. He mentioned rotary engine too.

Originally Posted by Varese2002

...
The Siemens Halske Sh I was an interesting rotary engine. In German language it was known as a 'Gegenläufer', I know what they mean in German but I cannot translate the technical terms in English though.
...
Kees

Hi Kees,

An English language term 'bi-rotary' is used for Siemens-Halske engines. My personal choice is 'geared rotary'. Furthermore, there are significant differences between Sh.1,2 and Sh.3.

Regards,
Yavor

P.S. Brad, At least three different Buldogg's and three more Siemens Eindecker designs were flown. You have a lot of choice!

[YavorD]

Breguet's Aircraft ID Challenge # 424

By the way, the old thread was not very clear about design chronology.
In my opinion, the first version was 'Prinz Friedrich Sigismund' Taube with a crown on its tail and Windhof (?) radiator. It was mentioned in 1914 competitions. Two later versions were built in 1915, one with Mercedes inline, another with Siemens Halske Sh.1. These aeroplanes share many design features. I do not know which is the last one.
Regards,
Yavor

Das Buch der deutschen Fluggeschichte. Bd. 2. Vorkriegszeit, Kriegszeit, Nachkriegszeit bis 1932 by Peter Supf. Drei Brunnen Verlag, Stuttgart (1958), Edition: 2., durchges., verb. u. erw. Aufl., 736 S.
Seite 172:
Im Jahre 1914 erscheint auch ein neuer, seines plumpen Rumpfes wegen “Bulldogg” genannter Eindecker des Prinzen Friedrich Sigismund, den Vilehad Forßman konstruirt hat. Prinz Friedrich Sigismund, der am Kriege als Flieger teilnahm, ist bei einem Reitturnier in Luzern am 6. July 1927 tödlich verunglückt. Forßman geht spatter zu Siemens und baut dort zwei weitere Bulldogg-Eindecker sowie ein Riesenflugzeug nach Art von Sikorsky.

S. 233, 236
Prinz-Heinrich-Flug 1914: Darmstadt-Frankfurt-Cöln: 17. bis 25. Mai 1914
Am 20. Mai geht bei nahezu windstillem Wetter der Start zur dritten Etappe Frankfurt-Hamburg vor sich. … Im Kassel wird die Albatrostaube Obltn. Kastners von dem Prinz-Sigismund-Eindecker, den Otto Stiefvatter führt, so schwer gerammt, daß beide Maschinen zerbrechen.

Dreieckflug Berlin (Johannisthal) - Leipzig - Dresden 30. Mai bis 5. Juni 1914
... Stiefvatter (Prinz-Friedrich-Sigismund Eindecker), ...

[Rbailey]

Although I answered the challenge, I had a feeling that this machine had been posted before but did not have time yesterday to check. I have the same concern as Kees; is a different engine suffficient to make a different challenge? I think there must be other significant differences. Breguet?

[Breguet]

I think that a rotary installation as opposed to an in-line does not perhaps make a significant enough change (eg the Sopwith Triplane with in-line installation is still called a Sopwith Triplane - though always with the addenum that it is the in-line version).

To move forward give RBailey the next challenge but no point.

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by YavorD

Breguet's Aircraft ID Challenge # 424

By the way, the old thread was not very clear about design chronology.
In my opinion, the first version was 'Prinz Friedrich Sigismund' Taube with a crown on its tail and Windhof (?) radiator. It was mentioned in 1914 competitions. Two later versions were built in 1915, one with Mercedes inline, another with Siemens Halske Sh.1. These aeroplanes share many design features. I do not know which is the last one.
Regards,
Yavor

Yavor, there is some research to be done on the monoplane (Eindecker) of Prinz Sigismund

This is a cutting from Flugsport 1912 - issue 17 (August 14)



So in 1912 already a Prinz Sigismund Eindecker was flying. In the clipping it is stated that the machine was constructed (designed) by the Prinz, which is highly unlikely. He probably furnished the money.
As the pilot of the Dorner Flugzeug GmbH (here named Dornerwerke) flew the Prinz Sigismund Eindecker it can be assumed that Hermann Dorner had a hand in the design and the ultimate construction of the machine.

I will try to search down more on these mysterious Prinz Sigismund Eindecker (or Eindeckers ?), or Siemens-Schuckert Eindecker or Dorner (?) Eindecker.

There still are gaps in the knowledge of German aviation in early times and 1914-1918

Cheers

Kees

[YavorD]

Hi Kees,

It is, obviously, another design from 1911/1912.

There is Flight, January 13, 1912, page 40:

Another Royal German Aviator.
PRINCE SIGISMUND of Prussia, cousin of the Kaiser, was experimenting on Saturday last at Bornstedt with a monoplane which he has had built to his own design. It is said that good results were obtained and the tests were followed with great interest by Prince Henry of Prussia who, as our readers are aware, already holds his pilot's certificate.

Flight, April 13, 1912, page 334:

THE BERLIN AERONAUTIC EXHIBITION.
WHEN the doors of the Aeronautical Exhibition at Berlin were opened on Wednesday of last week, it was at once evident the great change which has come over Germany in the last year or so. At the Frankfurt Exhibition in 1909, the lighter than air craft had matters all their own way, and aeroplanes were conspicuous by their absence, but at the present Berlin Show the aeroplane is in the ascendancy, and airships and balloons are represented by a few models and accessories. As was fitting, the Exhibition was opened by H.H. Prince Henry of Prussia, who is one of the few Royalties to hold a pilot aviator's licence.
Prominent among the exhibits are several Albatross biplanes, which in general appearance are on Breguet lines with the wings arranged a la Etrich, while a number of Rumpler-Taube monoplanes, one of which is equipped with a completely enclosed cab for the pilot, somewhat in appearance like the new Avro military type, while another fitted with two propellers also attracted a good deal of notice. The Euler firm are represented by a couple of biplanes and a tripiane, the latter equipped with floats for use over water. The German Wright firm exhibit one of their latest biplanes fitted with a single propeller instead of two as is the usual practice. Of the distinctly German machines there are on view Aviatik biplanes, and also a biplane designed by Buchner and built by a new firm. As well as Harlan, Goedecker, Dorner, Haefelin and Garuda monoplanes, the latter machine having curved wings. Prince Sigismund also shows his dragon fly monoplane. Altogether there are to be seen in the exhibition, which is being held in the Zoological Gardens, seventeen monoplanes, nine biplanes and one tripiane, besides, of course, a large collection of accessories and models, &c.

and Supf
Peter Supf. Das Buch der deutschen Fluggeschichte. Bd. 1. Vorzeit, Wendezeit, Werdezeit. Drei Brunnen Verlag, Stuttgart (1956), Edition: 2., durchges., verb. u. erw. Aufl., 600 S.

S. 426
Prinz Sigismund und Karl Krieger auf dem Eindecker des Prinzen (Bild)
S. 427
Der neunzehnjährige Prinz Sigismund baut in einer Werkstatt, die er sich im Schloß Alt-Glienicke bei Potsdam einrichten läßt, an einem Flugapparat. Dieser Apparat wird mit erfolg von Karl Krieger eingeflogen, der uns schon von der "Ila" (1909) her bekannt ist, wo er ein im Kaiserlichen Marstall gebautes Flugzeugmodell ausgestellt hat. Er hat sich dann mit kaiserlicher Unterstützung ein eigenes Flugzeug in Johannisthal zurechtgezimmert, auf den er ohne Lehrer fliegen lernnt und nach acht Wochen seine Pilotenprüfung ablegt.

[Varese2002]

Thanks Yavor. In the meantime I found a picture of the 1912 Eindecker, which shows it differs appreciably from the Bulldogge. Will follow up this day with that picture.

Thanks and

Cheers

Kees

[crankcase]

Originally Posted by YavorD

Rbailey beet me with a couple of seconds. He mentioned rotary engine too.



Hi Kees,

An English language term 'bi-rotary' is used for Siemens-Halske engines. My personal choice is 'geared rotary'. Furthermore, there are significant differences between Sh.1,2 and Sh.3.

Regards,
Yavor

P.S. Brad, At least three different Buldogg's and three more Siemens Eindecker designs were flown. You have a lot of choice!

Hi guys,
I believe I have seen the term "contra-rotary" to describe the Siemans Halske principle where the cylinders turnin one direction and the propeller in the opposite direction. The German word "gegen" means "against", so i think "contra" embraces the concept.
marc

[YavorD]

Originally Posted by crankcase

Hi guys,
I believe I have seen the term "contra-rotary" to describe the Siemans Halske principle where the cylinders turnin one direction and the propeller in the opposite direction. The German word "gegen" means "against", so i think "contra" embraces the concept.
marc

Hi Marc,
It is a bit more complex issue.
In the Siemens-Halske Sh.3 cylinders and propeller turn in the same direction, but crankshaft turns in opposite direction. The scheme you described is correct for the Siemens-Halske Sh.1.
Regards,
Yavor

[Rbailey]

Originally Posted by Breguet

I think that a rotary installation as opposed to an in-line does not perhaps make a significant enough change (eg the Sopwith Triplane with in-line installation is still called a Sopwith Triplane - though always with the addenum that it is the in-line version).

To move forward give RBailey the next challenge but no point.

The Hispano-powered triplane may not be a good example as it was actually a different design than the rotary powered one - different wing span as well as length, etc - and not just the same airframe with a different engine installation. There will be cases where the line is blurred, but I think in this challenge is not in that category.

Next challenge shortly,after I make sure it is not a duplicate.