Wow,I didn't know that Z.Staakens had this!

[Varese2002]

There is an original Cloud car / observation car or better Spähkorb in the Imperial War Museum (IWM) London. It was captured in East Anglia, as reported by Flight in its issue of September 28, 1916.

This is their passage about the Cloud car =

Although not forming part of the same airship, the observation car picked up in East Anglia forms a very interesting exhibit. It is built up of a light framework of channel steel, covered with light gauge aluminium. It has a hemispherical nose, from which a conical tail projects backwards, the extreme point of the tail carrying vertical and horizontal Ims, the object of which is obviously that of keeping the car head to wind when the airship is travelling at speed. Incidentally the method of suspension is interesting, and might be applied with advantage to the anchorage of kite balloons, since it is obvious that one may regard the observation car, hanging down by virtue of its weight and lagging behind the cruising airship on account of the resistance of the car itself nut! its cable, as equivalent to a kite balloon straining upwards on an omit of its lift and tending to drift back owing to the resistance of its envelope and anchor cable. The method of suspending the observation car consists of taking four short lengths of cable, attached with their inner ends to four points on the framework of the car, to one end of a coil spring, to the other end of which is attached the end of the single lift cable by means of which the car is suspended.
Forming the core of this lift cable is a copper cable, serving evidently as a telephone wire, and the interior of the observation car bears evidence of having been fitted up with telephone, electric light, &c. A flat floor is built into the framework of the car, and on this the observer would lie stretched out flat, for making observations through the windows in the lower part and sides of the hemispherical nose-piece of the car, telephoning his observations to the commander of the airship. Owing to the resistance of the
car and its cable it would, when the airship was under way, be some distance behind the airship, so that there would be little danger of the bombs dropped hitting the observation car. The means whereby the car was raised and lowered are evident from the windlass shot or dropped down with the car". That a man can in this manner be lowered a very considerable
distance appears evident from the size of the drum on the windlass, which appears capable of holding several thousand feet of cable. On a cloudy night the advantages of being able to lower a man down below the clouds while
keeping the airship above them would seem to be very considerable, and if used in connection with Vere lights the man in the car should get a rather good view of the ground below.

The article is illustrated with a 1916 picture of the Spähkorb, which confirms it as the same car as now in the IWM.

Cheers

Kees

[Catfish]

Hello,

thanks Kees for the info, i also found the text mentioned, and info from you (Varese2002) at Wikipedia.

Spy basket - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have looked up for this in Lehmann, and Robinson, and asked Harry (Luftschiffharry in this forum, who b.t.w. has a terrific website), who has specialized in airships, and has much more experience than me.

After checking this out i am still sure the story in Wilbur Cross's "Zeppelins of World War I" from 1991 is pure fiction, as well certainly as the incident shown in Howard Hughes' "Hells Angels" film from 1930.
Apart from some real nice footage of real planes from the great war, filmed in flight, "Hell's Angels" with the behaviour of german airmen described resembles a propaganda film, if an interesting one. Funny how people tend to believe in Hollywood- and other films, everyone would officially deny scenes in "Flyboys", but somehow a bit always seems to stick, maybe an intended outcome (you know it is all a conspiracy ) ..

Hughes started to make this film already in 1920, and it is said to be the most expensive and time consuming (10 years) film ever. Planes crashed, people died, Hughes fired several actors and assistants, changed the film again and again, and became almost obsessive about it. When colour film material became available during the 1920ies Hughes tried to recolour the whole film, which again took years. A good film about aviation pioneer Howard Hughes himself is "The Aviator" from 2004, well worth seeing b.t.w.

The "cloud car" in the Imperial War Museum belongs to a Zeppelin which lost this one accidentally, when the winch malfunctioned and released the car along with some 5,000 feet of wire. Since the winch was badly damaged by an iron bar (see below) and maybe the sudden jolt while jamming, the Zeppelin also jettisoned the damaged winch itself later.
As said before cloud cars were used by army airships, not naval ones, so it had to be an army Zeppelin.

As Harry instantly wrote, it was LZ 90 during a raid in september, 2nd to 3rd, 1916. All Zeppelin army airships had designations like "LZ .. ", while naval ones were numbered "L ..".

From Robinson:

" ... LZ 90 came inland at Frinton, south of the Naze, at 11.05 p.m. At 11.20 she stopped her engines and lowered a sub-cloud car, which ran away and fell near Manningtree with about 5,000 feet of cable. The Zeppelin later dropped the winch, on which were found marks suggesting that the crew had tried to stop it from unreeling by jamming an iron bar into the gears. [...]
Reports differ as to whether anyone was in the sub-cloud car, but the contemporary narrative of G.H.Q. Home Forces states: "There is no reason to suppose that an observer was in the car, which undoubtedly fell by accident."1 (footnote) ..."

"1 Great Britain, Air Ministry. Air Raids, 1916. VII, Sept. 2-3, 1916. Compiled by the Intelligence Section, G.H.Q. Home Forces. Subsequently repaired, the sub-cloud car was hung in the Imperial War Museum, Lambeth. Built by the ship's Crew "["Spaehkoerbe" or observation gondolas, were mostly built by the crews] of sheet duralumin, it measured 14 feet long and 4 feet deep, with four fins at the rear and small celluloid windows at the front. Inside was a mattress for the observer to lie on, and a telephone connecting him with the airship above. According to the inscription attached, "a captured member of the crew of another ship stated there was a considerable competition for the post of observer in this car, owing to the fact that smoking was permitted in it."

As Kees said i will believe this story with the hiding german soldier jettisoned with his cloud car only until i hear or read some witness report. Considering the propaganda machine of the time it may well be that this story was intentionally used to again depict those ruthless huns, sacrificing their soldiers, and to warn the public to look out for german spies ..

The three attachments were sent to me by Harry, they show the Spaehkorb after restoration, in the Imperial war museum, and a replica of it at Nordholz, Germany. Thanks !

Thanks all and greetings,
Kai

[Varese2002]

I see that one needs to be very cautious in writing, otherwise you end up in Wikipedia without even knowing it yourself

Cheers

Kees

[Epee]

Yep, the collective "common knowlege", and in many cases "personnal thoughts" become globally excepted facts very easily these days. I use Wiki a lot; with a strong dose of critical skepticism, and realise that Wiki would make George Orwell gasp with how easily "fact" gets changed.

[gregorydquist]

From Robinson:

" ... LZ 90 came inland at Frinton, south of the Naze, at 11.05 p.m. At 11.20 she stopped her engines and lowered a sub-cloud car, which ran away and fell near Manningtree with about 5,000 feet of cable. The Zeppelin later dropped the winch, on which were found marks suggesting that the crew had tried to stop it from unreeling by jamming an iron bar into the gears. [...]
Reports differ as to whether anyone was in the sub-cloud car, but the contemporary narrative of G.H.Q. Home Forces states: "There is no reason to suppose that an observer was in the car, which undoubtedly fell by accident."1 (footnote) ..."

Just an idle thought...Why would a Zeppelin lower an unoccupied cloud car if it's intended use is to carry an observer ? I guess the key point is whether or not the lowering was intentional or not. Seems they may have at least originally intended to lower the car perhaps to ascertain their location, as they stopped their engines.

Greg

[Varese2002]

The crew of the Zeppelin LZ 90 could have thrown the Spähkorb and the winch (inclusive of rope) overboard, to loose weight, to get more height. Probably in case of emergency or attack by a Zeppelin fighter.

This solves the riddle that the Spähkorb was lowered without an observer.

If the logbook of the LZ 90 survives, there might be some verification for this hypothesis. {Please Wikipedians, do not quote this as truth, this is only what could have happened on 2/3 September 1916 ]

Cheers

Kees

[Catfish]

Hello,
thanks for your comments!


@Gregory:

" ...Why would a Zeppelin lower an unoccupied cloud car if it's intended use is to carry an observer ? I guess the key point is whether or not the lowering was intentional or not. Seems they may have at least originally intended to lower the car perhaps to ascertain their location, as they stopped their engines. ... "

Maybe they intended to lower it, makes sense because it would not have fallen out of the ship during normal cruise or a stop, without someone working at it.

As you said airships often stopped for getting exact positions, or just waited for more favourable conditions for a bomb attack - this is why they were hard to find, and shoot down - if Home defense started their planes too early, they might have had to land due to lack of fuel before the airship came into sight. In 1916 the used BE2s did take quite some time to gain altitude. Home defense even had mobile acoustic warning devices like shown in Hells Angels (which is correct here), but also sound mirrors for detecting airships long before they reached the coast.

Harry informed me about this:
FAQ 28 - Fernhrer - akustische Ortung

Hythe Sound Mirrors

Some german commanders went in full ahead to stir up the defenses, and then just stopped their engines so the counter attack would grasp at nothing.

I can imagine (don't quote me please ;-) ) that the sub-cloud car would have had to be unhooked from a fixed position during normal cruise of the airship, before connecting it to the winch, lowering it into a position where it could be easily entered by the observer.

edit : The text in orange is not true - the telephone wire went through the center of the cable, so it had to be permanently fixed to the car. The lowering int position may still be true though ..

Anyway it seems that the winch did not carry the car's load and the cable instantly began to run away along with the car (ratchet brace / break disengaged ?). Trying to stop its fall they rammed a bar into the winch's gear, but (speculation) either the cable was torn away with the car by the sudden stopping jolt, or it did not stop it at all, or it stopped but they were not able to recover the car due to the smashed gear of the winch. Will look for evidence, but it is not easy to find.

@Kees

" ... The crew of the Zeppelin LZ 90 could have thrown the Spähkorb and the winch (inclusive of rope) overboard, to loose weight, to get more height. Probably in case of emergency or attack by a Zeppelin fighter. ...

To be honest i do not know enough to support this - jettisoning material for gaining altitude was indeed done quite often, however with LZ 90 according to the reports the car was lost indeed due to a malfunction of the winch. Maybe the damaged winch was thrown out at a later time to then gain altitude ? Would it have jettisoned even a damaged but probably repairable winch without good reason ?

Thanks and greetings,
Kai

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Catfish

-----
As Kees said i will believe this story with the hiding german soldier jettisoned with his cloud car only until i hear or read some witness report. Considering the propaganda machine of the time it may well be that this story was intentionally used to again depict those ruthless huns, sacrificing their soldiers, and to warn the public to look out for german spies ..
------
Thanks all and greetings,
Kai

Hi Kai, searching in the 'endless' files of the National Archives UK I found a file with 'Interrogatories of German prisoners' [AIR 1/1/4/26/1]. This could be a more or less voluminous file. Given that this files was made by the Air Ministry, it can be assumed that the interrogations were al least with German aviation-related prisoners.

The file can be found in the catalog here.

Perhaps these files can bring some evidence to the Spähkorb story

Cheers

Kees

[Catfish]

Hello Kees,
thank you very much for your kind posts, i have indeed asked for an excerpt (right word?), and will wait for an answer - this is what i wrote:

"Dear Sir or Madam,
i am looking for information on a sub-cloud car jettisoned by Army Airship Zeppelin LZ 90 above England during a raid in september, 2nd to 3rd, 1916. There are rumours that a surviving observer of this jettisoned cloud car would have hid away until being caught - is there any hint the story is true ? It is from Wilbur Cross - Zeppelins of World I (1991) p. 61-62,
Thank you, Kai ... "

We will wait and see, i will post any update,

thanks and greetings,
Schoenes Wochenende,
Kai

[Gurgast]

As for my feeble assertions on this thread ... I have to admit that this is what I was told when visiting the Imperial War Museum as a child many decades ago. I must say, jettisoning personnel, struck me at the time as a wicked thing to do, and it hardened my heart against Germans so much that, as an adult, I voted to keep Britain out of the EEC. I wasn't all that fond of Germans anyway because they had killed by graddad's dad. My only subsequent direct experience of Germans was in East Berlin some years before the Wall came down, when I drank schnapps with some of them and got the impression they were quite sorry about what they'd done.