Breguet's Aircraft ID Challenge #533

Aquilius · 19 February 2009, 03:27 AM

Okay, there were no official decision, but I won’t wait any longer.

And before FokkerJ starts a new edition; here is ID Challenge No. 533!

Of course it becomes not easier to find new pictures, but there are still some courious one-off wonders to find.
(And I do have a few of them left

)

What is this? Where was it built and who designed it?

Our scoreboard is:

97.00 Varese2002 ☼
68.70 Dave_Kent ☼
57.20 Rbailey ☼
31.30 Cruze ☼
17.50 YavorD
17.15 Froggy
15.50 Aquilius
13.30 Rod Filan
12.60 Flamingo
11.90 richard B
09.50 matte_kudasai
08.40 JohnMacG
08.10 Breguet
07.70 Dan-San
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.30 Patrick
07.10 Colin A. Owers
06.70 Ampovandak
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
05.70 Doc
05.70 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.45 GregE
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Gilles
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 Tom L........................ 12hours waiting

04.70 AROTH.................... No waiting
04.70 dpolglaze
04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.00 greenknight
03.70 Berman
02.50 Gregoire
02.10 Crankcase
02.00 Lodzermensch
02.00 Rickenbaron
02.00 sobrien
01.70 Kilian
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.30 Cigogne
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 airplane176
01.00 Albatros_Ace
01.00 austin08
01.00 Brad
01.00 Catfish
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Luf-Rick
01.00 Mike Westorp
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 Rexee
01.00 SL DIII
01.00 Tripehound
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 ’14-‘18aviationcollector
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd30
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14
00.20 Paul_J._Fisher

Previous Challenges are to find here: Aeroplanes 1914 - 1918* -* Breguet's Aircraft Challenge* --

Quote:

The rules :

•The thread title must be "Bréguet's aircraft ID challenge #......"
•The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning and end of each thread so that we know where we are.
•The completed aircraft must have been either; designed, built or have left the ground during the '14-'18 period and be identifiable by the poster.
•The photo must show the whole aircraft - from whatever angle, or at least 2 views of a 3 view drawing (photo by preference).
•Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
(always check the list at earlyaviator.com/br.challenge when in doubt !)
•If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of an aircraft for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the aircraft is submitted.
•Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they become an ACE. Once they become an ACE they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
•To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
•The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
•If an ace gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
•The final arbiter in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.

Have a good hunt

Aquilius

Lodzermensch · 19 February 2009, 06:08 AM

Hello,

This is Hocke ( aka Holcker ) Experimental biplane - movable control surfaces mounted above the wing.However, there is a problem. I’m not sure whether this plane ever flew.

Greetings

Marek

Lodzermensch · 19 February 2009, 06:28 AM

Hello again,

Of course my answer is not complete. The plane was built in Austro-Hungary, in December 1917.Hocke or Holcker ( sources give two versions of the name ) was the name of designer.

Greetings

Marek

Aquilius · 19 February 2009, 03:04 PM

Marek, of course you are right!

What looks like the tailplane here is the lower pair of wings, fitted to the underside of the fuselage a little behind the mainplane. Above we see the ailerons. I have it completed at the beginning of 1918.

I can't add much on it's flying history and now I see I also have not the complete name of the designer nor the place where it was built.
Just it is Austrian.

So full score to you!
May I ask you what source give it the name "Holcker"?

The scoreboard after challenge 533 is:

97.00 Varese2002 ☼
68.70 Dave_Kent ☼
57.20 Rbailey ☼
31.30 Cruze ☼
17.50 YavorD
17.15 Froggy
15.50 Aquilius
13.30 Rod Filan
12.60 Flamingo
11.90 richard B
09.50 matte_kudasai
08.40 JohnMacG
08.10 Breguet
07.70 Dan-San
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.30 Patrick
07.10 Colin A. Owers
06.70 Ampovandak
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
05.70 Doc
05.70 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.45 GregE
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Gilles
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 Tom L........................ 12hours waiting
04.70 AROTH.................... No waiting
04.70 dpolglaze
04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.00 greenknight
03.70 Berman
03.00 Lodzermensch
02.50 Gregoire
02.10 Crankcase
02.00 Rickenbaron
02.00 sobrien
01.70 Kilian
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.30 Cigogne
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 airplane176
01.00 Albatros_Ace
01.00 austin08
01.00 Brad
01.00 Catfish
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Luf-Rick
01.00 Mike Westorp
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 Rexee
01.00 SL DIII
01.00 Tripehound
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 ’14-‘18aviationcollector
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd30
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14
00.20 Paul_J._Fisher

Marek, the stage is yours!

Cheers

Aquilius

Lodzermensch · 19 February 2009, 03:33 PM

Hello,

Thank you, Aquilius.

According to P.M. Grosz, G. Haddow and P.Schiemer the designer’s name Holcker appears in Flars records, although the authors have described the aircraft as Hocke Experimental Biplane – Austro-Hungarian Army Aircraft of WW I, second edition, page 366.

The same two versions of designer’s name are included in the archives of Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum – probably from the same, it means Flars records, source.

Greetings

Marek

Aquilius · 19 February 2009, 03:38 PM

Okay, I do rely here on the Austrian Reinhard Keimel, a well known historian of early aviation of his home country.
He only came with the name "Hocke".

Cheers

Aquilius

Lodzermensch · 19 February 2009, 04:21 PM

Hi,

Personally, I would trust the Austrian historian. Not for the fact that the sources I pointed out are wrong. Simply, native speakers are able to distinguish subtle differences in the spelling of native names.

Perhaps, the designer’s name was erroneously recorded in the official registers. This error is difficult to capture for someone who is not a native speaker.

Cheers

Marek

Varese2002 · 21 February 2009, 11:39 AM

About the Hocke <=> Holcker discrepancy, I consulted the noted Czech WW1 aviation authority Jan Zahálka, who compiled

Quote:

Zahálka, Jan. 2004. Velká válka. 2., Rakousko-uherské armádní letectvo = Der grosse Krieg. 2., Österreichische-ungarische Luftfahrtruppen. Si vis pacem para bellum. Brno: Para bellum.

In this book there is even a different picture than those published in Grosz c.s. The machine is identified as the Hocke Flugzeug, powered by a 4-cylinder Hiero engine.

It would be very interesting to see a copy of the Flars document where the name 'Holcker' is mentioned.

Cheers

Kees