Reloading Guns

WolfOfBadenoch · 30 June 2009, 01:19 AM

Thanks John, I suspect that even though they are replicas they are pretty close to the originals. Do you have any more info on their history ? Were they made from references to originals, or plans ? Best wishes,

John McKenzie · 30 June 2009, 03:03 AM

WolfOfBadenoch......Alex.....All these replicas I made some 30 years ago (from memory ) or more ....At the time ,when I did the first gun (sic) , was for a Fokker DrI which I had started a little while previously . Initially I used Redfern plans which were soon superceeded by my own , these being a compilation of all the historical reports, drawings and photos etc. that I could find , along with dialogue with the few interested people known to me ,ie,Paul Leamon...just up the road near Farnborough, and the late George Ballinger near Bristol .During this time , an ongoing Stress analysis was carried out (a requirement for a new type under the PFA register...now LAA )by the late Ray, Hillbourn at Winchester ....A total lack of any workshop space (appart from kitchen table ) caused "realisation" of circumstances , and subsequent sale of project .(Leisuresport /Thorp Park..via late Viv Bellamy )......Just realised how many that I knew are now dead ........To keep in touch , with project , I aggread to complete the Guns for it ......I did carry on with same facilaty but at same time commenced construction of my present small workshop ,in "the back garden" , with the help of my Dad .......To cut a long story shorter , I had to put plans for Fokker EV on hold to make guns full time for a living (JUST ! ).....I did "Spandau"..08.(ground)...LMG 08/15 ....Vickers Mk I,2 and 3 ...along with Sop Pup Screens ..Scarrf rings..and a variety of metal fittings for Sopwith aeroplanes...All here & USA ......Artist friend Jim Dietz had a Lewis along with Ron Kitchen (for N17) , who also later had a couple of LMG 08/15 's for his Pfalz DIII......In the UK, sales included Guy Black ...and RAF museum....along with some private sales to people (Who may prefer anonymaty )..........

..Well , thats the History bit done........As to the drawings........I started off with a set (50usd) of 3 drawings by Ray Holling..USA...Very detailed and the best and only available at the time..sold through WWI Aero....(Very early days even befor when No33 or so.)...I was able to get other dimensions for others incl,. 08 from "Royal Greenjackets museum" Winchester ....etc......Also similar for Vickers..From this I made up my own drawing as necessary....I did manage to get almost full set of original s from BSA for the Lewis and Vickers sent what they had left ........Well I think that just about covers it all,....It has all been over 30 years ago , so , if I've missed anyone out here , then I appolegise now.....Regards to all..

John

John McKenzie · 2 July 2009, 11:12 AM

Hi there WolfOfBadenoch....Alex , I made these guns such a long time ago...I cannot keep everything , and so , because I was no longer going to make any more , mainly due to lack of demand at that time , all my engineering drawings of these things ,such as they were , were unfortunately destroyed......Therefore I am unable to provide any such"engineering" drawings to you......Whilest on the subject ,....Dave 83..is looking for a new or "Legible" set of the 3 drawings from Hay Hollings.........He is trying very hard to get somewhere on this and the DrI , and could do with a break , ....Can You Help Him Out Here , as you have a recent set ???

.....Hope the photos I posted for you are of some help...Regards..John.

WolfOfBadenoch · 2 July 2009, 01:49 PM

Hi John, what a shame ! And thanks again for the photographs - each and every one helps.

A copy of the Ray Hollings diagrams can be downloaded from Arizona Models

Machine Guns

Now these have a scale on them, but no dimensions/tolerences etc, and since they have been scanned in I would expect some slight distortions.

I have also bought a copy of plans from the Smithsonian. I'll try and find a link to that tonight. best regards,
Alex

WolfOfBadenoch · 3 July 2009, 01:26 AM

Here is the link to the Smithsonian's plans. Even though the mailing prices are dated 2004 it seems to work - my plans arrived in June 2009, so they were still honouring them then.

NASM Archives Technical Drawings: Prepared Sets - List

Dave_Watts · 3 July 2009, 02:01 AM

Hi John,

Sorry for the tardiness in replying, I haven't come back to this thread for some time.

You asked about the belt width for the Spandau. I've looked high and low at any photo I could find of Spandau belts and 99% show the narrow 2-rivet "Parabellum" belt. I have no documentation or directorates explaining why it was the belt of choice so I have to speculate. I believe the origin was the use of the Parabellums on the early Fokker Eindeckers and the first use of Parabellums for rear guns on two-seaters.

(Sorry for the photo size, I can't get through my FTP program to repost a smaller sized image)

Here is a poor quality shot of an early huge 2-rivet belt being used on a Fokker Eindecker with an LMG 08.

In other words the 2-rivet belt became the "standard" for all aircraft use, front and rear guns. It would make things simpler for the armorers only having to load one type of belt. One would also reason that the bullets would extract more easily from the narrow belt and therefore assist in the cycling of the gun. Even on German airships you see the narrow belt utilized. German airships and seaplanes, like the Hansa-Brandenburg W.29 and W.33 utilize the heavier LMG 08's even though the LMG 08/15's were available. I have speculated from photographic evidence that Home Defence aircraft often utilized the heavier LMG 08's.

Here is a shot of the Fokker V.5 prototype at the Fokker factory, udergoing firing testing with Fokker in the cockpit with Platz helping out. This is a 2-rivet belt. There is a superb film of this firing test, that may be available on you-tube, I'll have a look for it.

The only photo I've seen of a fighter using the wide 3-rivet ground belt was a late war shot of a cobbled together, (using different parts from different planes as well as manufacturers), Fokker D.VII used by a flying school. In the photo the cowlings are missing around the guns and the empty belt exit down tube is missing from the guns as well...very unusual.

Speaking of the 3-rivet ground belt, didn't someone post a photo of the "MvR belt" that was donated to the Australian War Museum? This belt is a modified ground belt where someone has cut off the extended spacer/alignment tabs enabling the belt to go down the exit chute to the empty belt box.

(Again, sorry for the photo size)

Here is a photo of a piece of the reported belt fragment kept by the original scrounger/momento keeper that was later sold to famous MvR collector/biographer, Charles Donald, who later passed away and this was auctioned off not long ago.

This photo and fragment, if true, is one of the only supporting facts I've seen to give credence to the use of 3-rivet belts on WW1 German fighters, albeit in modified form. As I've stated I can not find any photographic evidence to support the use of this modified form belt.

I have spoken with ammunition collectors in Germany and they have these "Parabellum" belts, although they appear to be rare and hard to find. I have several 2-rivet belts, but I believe them to be Vickers .303 belts. Some are marked/stamped ".303" and others are unmarked. They are very difficult to find.

Here is a photo of the trigger lock from an LMG 08/15 and you can see the 2-rivet belt in the background pretty clearly. I used this photo of one of my locks and belt to discuss the positions and workings of the lock for another thread.

Best wishes,
Dave W.

John McKenzie · 6 July 2009, 08:51 AM

Hi Dave.....Thanks for going to the trouble of looking out the photos,..That IS a LONG belt on the "08" Eindecker..........Your explanation seems very plausible , and without any other evidence of directives becoming available in the future ,it is probably the best we'll ever get...ie.."Standardisation".......It is still a little odd , unless I'm missing something , that there was no need to apply tension to the used belt ,aft of the exit shoot ,(as in British and French machines with their spring loaded drums *) ,to prevent it "bunching up" in the collector box ,.This , being ahead of the live ammo' bix ,would be very difficult to reach ?..I guess that the German belts may have been a little stiffer , and could pass quite cleanly through the shoot....Maybe we'll never get to know without trying it perhaps ?

....Best Regards..John. (*...Not sure exactly if & when disintergrating links Actualy started being in general use on Brit,. & French A/C )