Breguet's aircraft ID challenge #540

[Aquilius]

Welcome to Breguet’s aircraft ID challenge #540!


Well, I’ve been home a bit late yesterday, but now I can offer you the next round.




What aircraft do we have here and who designed it?

For a full score I want to read a little bit of it’s history.
(I think you do know I like you to name the people involved. )



The scoreboard is:

98.00 Varese2002 ☼
69.70 Dave_Kent ☼
59.20 Rbailey ☼
31.30 Cruze ☼
17.50 YavorD
17.15 Froggy
16.50 Aquilius
13.30 Rod Filan
12.60 Flamingo
11.90 richard B
09.50 matte_kudasai
08.40 JohnMacG
08.10 Breguet
07.70 Dan-San
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.30 Patrick
07.10 Colin A. Owers
06.70 Ampovandak
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
05.70 Doc
05.70 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.45 GregE
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Gilles
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 Tom L........................ 12hours waiting
04.70 AROTH........................ No waiting
04.70 dpolglaze
04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.00 greenknight
03.70 Berman
03.00 Lodzermensch
02.50 Gregoire
02.10 Crankcase
02.00 Rickenbaron
02.00 sobrien
01.70 Kilian
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.30 Cigogne
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 airplane176
01.00 Albatros_Ace
01.00 austin08
01.00 Brad
01.00 Catfish
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Luf-Rick
01.00 Mike Westorp
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 Rexee
01.00 SL DIII
01.00 Tripehound
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 ’14-‘18aviationcollector
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd30
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14
00.20 Paul_J._Fisher


Previous Challenges: Aeroplanes 1914 - 1918* -* Breguet's Aircraft Challenge* --

Breguet's Rules

•The thread title must be "Bréguet's aircraft ID challenge #......"
•The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
•The completed aircraft must have been either; designed, built or have left the ground during the '14-'18 period and be identifiable by the poster.
•The photo must show the whole aircraft - from whatever angle, or at least 2 views of a 3 view drawing (photo by preference).
•Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
(always check the list at earlyaviator.com/br.challenge when in doubt !)
•If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of an aircraft for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the aircraft is submitted.
•Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they become an ACE. Once they become an ACE they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
•To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
•The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
•If an ace gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
• The final arbiter in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.

Have a good hunt!

Aquilius

[Lodzermensch]

Hello,

Due to the date of manufacture I have some doubts as to my choice, but it does not hurt to try.

Judging by the look of the chassis, the shape of the wing and the arrangement of tail section this may be Harlan Eindecker.

The machine was constructed in 1911. It was two-seater, reconnaissance monoplane. Two of these planes were purchased by Ottoman Empire from Germany among with the other monoplanes in 1911. During the Balkan War both of the planes which were sent to the front were captured by the advancing Bulgarian Forces.

Unfortunately, I do not have any information on the use of the airplane in 1914 or later.

Greetings

Marek

[Lodzermensch]

Hello again,

Here is some additional information about the aircraft. During National Week at Johannisthal a pilot Grulich flying the Harlan Eindecker, was third in the duration of flight competition. His flight lasted 10 hours 10 minutes.

The same pilot in the aircraft set a new record in January 1912. With two passengers on board he succeeded in keeping up for 2 hours 2 minutes 45 seconds.

Cheers

Marek

[Aquilius]

Hmmm, no other entries after 12 hours...


Marek, you are not far from the goal!
Just there is something missing till now.

It is not the 1911 Harlan.
And the type briefly flew in 1914.
(but you are right, it is a pre-war design)


I will come back to the records later, but I have to ask where you get your notes from?

When did Grulich flew 10 hours?
Following Günther Schmitt, the time record with pilot only was 5:10 h on December 12th 1912, set by Alfred Friedrich and Felix Laitsch flew 9:23 h on Oktober 28th 1913.
The "National Week" you mentioned was the "Nationale Flugwoche" in June 1911, when Grulich won the highest price? There have been two earlier ones in August and Oktober 1910, but Karl Grulich didn't took part then.

The achievements of the aircraft I'm looking for where reached by other pilots.


Aquilius

[Rbailey]

Harlan had a 1912 2-seater eindecker with 100 hp Argus engine, flown in 1912 by Ernst Kruger in the "round Berlin" flight of 1912, which he won. This would appear to be it.

"Den Wettbewerb »Rund um Berlin« gewann Ernst Krüger (Harlan-Eindecker, Flugpreis: 26 836 Mark) vor Anton Baierlein (Otto-Zweidecker, Flugpreis 18 810 Mark) und Karl Caspar (Rumpler-Taube, Flugpreis: 8 613 Mark)"

Forgot to add that the cockpit arrangement and fuselage are more in keeping with the 1912 version.

[matte_kudasai]

There is "Harlan military monoplane of 1912" mentioned in Janes 1913. Photos of this macine seen in Flight, 1912.

[Lodzermensch]

Hello Aquilius,

You are right. The problem is that I have information only about Harlan monoplane itself, that is - on the original design of 1911. Of course, I realized that the fuselage of early model of the aircraft was not covered. However, this was the only difference that I could see.

The main source about the airplane, which I used is here.

BRISTOL Pre WW I Period TUAF AIRCRAFTS 1 nci dunya savasi oncesi Turk HvKK UCAKLARI


As to Nationale Flugwoche in 1911, I was suggested by the press release. Pay attention to the note entitled The Johannisthal Meeting.

voisin canard | 1911 | 0898 | Flight Archive


My Mom always said: DO NOT BELIEVE JOURNALISTS.They always overstate the facts.:

Greetings

Marek

[YavorD]

Lodzermensch is right about "Harlan Eindecker" but not 1911 version.
There was Harlan Pfeiltaube in early 1912, which is not the case too.
Harlan Eindecker, Militärtyp 1913 should be the case now. The story is a bit complex, as shown below.

Peter Supf, Das Buch der Deutschen Fluggeschichte: Vorzeit - Werdezeit - Wendezeit (1956) S.526

Dr. Wolfgang Harlan mußte im Januar 1913 seine Werke schließen; sie wurden später als Bussard-Werke forgeführt. Harlans tüchtiger Konstrukteur, Karl Grulich, trat als Chefingenieur bei der Gothaer Waggonfabrik ein.

People involved with the machine of this Challenge are, obviously, Dr. Wolfgang Harlan and Karl Grulich, and probably Max Schüler.
Max Schüler set an enfurance record of 9 hours 45 minutes on February 9, 1914.
Hermann Reichelt flew Harlan aeroplane(s) on long distance flights during 1913 (Kiel-Posen 500 km in July; Berlin-Paris 1025 km in September).

Regards,
Yavor

[Lodzermensch]

Hello,

Thanks Yavor for the additional info. However, I must admit that I am more and more confused. Name Pfeiltaube suggests that there was yet another type of Harlan monoplane. Maybe I am wrong, but for me Taube means the characteristic shape of the wing.

Can somebody list all types of Harlan monoplanes, as listed in the books?

Here is the airplane mentioned in my first post




And here you have another one, later type I guess





Greetings

Marek

[YavorD]

Hi Marek,



This is Reichelt's aeroplane, I think.
Yes, Pfeiltaube is a true Taube according to the picture in Supf, Bd.2.

About Harlan's enterprise, Flugsport, February 1914.


Regards,
Yavor