BREGUET's CRASH FILE CHALLENGE Nr.404

Varese2002 · 29 March 2009, 08:31 AM

Looking at this picture in more detail, it represents quite a scene. Above the wing of the Lohner can just be seen the head of the unlucky pilot, who probably sank the flying boat.

There is already a rope around the tail of the machine, where the intention was to bring this to the tug with the small rowing boat. When you look in detaiol to the sailors, they sure are watching the photographer at the other side. The result of their effort might be that the machine was brought ashore, but so very heavy damaged by their action that is was a write-off.

Sure this looks like a harbour but there is nothing very distinctive around on the picture (no churches ....). I looked up in a history book where the frontline was in beginning 1916 at the German / Russian side.

Surprisingly Germany had taken over Vilnius (Lithania) at September 18, 1915 making a halt just before Riga (Latvia) at August 29, 1915.

By the way, the picture has not sold on Ebay and as the back is also presented there is nothing on it.

The list of Peter M. Grosz is presented in Over the Front Volume 14 Number 1 (Spring 1999), so already 10 years ago. It supersedes all other lists presented before it, BUT as 10 years have passed already there may be 'new' information found in archives and/or pictures sothat (small) changes in the list are necessary.

I don't know if someone (or the League of WW1 Aviation Historians) has a responsibility for this list or is updating it.

Cheers

Kees

Lodzermensch · 29 March 2009, 08:47 AM

Hello Gentlemen,

Jay,

You do not need to apologize. My statement was probably not precise or accurate but I did not mean so called political correctness.

It was only by the fact, that there wasn’t something like Latvia in Russia till 18th September 1918. Simply, the state called Latvia had never existed to that date although Lettish nation existed a long earlier. I hope this clarify a little my intentions.

By the way, I have found a place called Windau. It is a German name for the town located on the Baltic shore, about 100 km west of Riga and about 100 km north of Liepaja (previously Palanga), vis a vis Gotland. At present times it is known as Ventspils, Latvia.

Kees,

Nest and Putzig sounds good. It is difficult to recognize the place photographed nearly a hundred years ago, but low buildings near the smooth shore could match to Putzig.

Greetings

Marek

Varese2002 · 29 March 2009, 08:56 AM

Windau had a German seaplane station.

The German Navy had a strong organisation, like this

Quote:

Responsible for the personnel-supply of the frontline units were:

I.Seeflieger-Abteilung in Kiel (responsible for the Seeflugstationen Alpenrade, Flensburg, Kiel, Warnemünde, Bug and Wyk auf Rügen, Nest and Putzig near Danzig. It were also responsible for the baltic stations in Libau, Windau, Angersee and Papensholm and for the stations in the south like Xanthi, Kawak, St.Stefano, Chanak, Varna, Konstanza and Odessa).

II.Seeflieger-Abteilung in Wilhelmshaven (responsible for the Seeflugstationen in List auf Sylt, Helgoland, Norderney, Wilhelmshaven, Borkum, Zeebrügge and Ostende).

In the Baltic they had Libau, Windau, Angersee and Papensholm. This are sure the German names of these towns, which may have other names in the different Baltic nations.

Cheers

Kees

Lodzermensch · 29 March 2009, 10:03 AM

Hello,

Just for your fun. A list of present-day names for some place listed by Kees.

Nest and Putzig - Gniezdzewo (do not even try to spell this

) and Puck - Gdansk Harbour,Poland.
Libau - Liepaja, Lithuania,
Windau - Ventspils, Latvia,
Angersee - Engure, north-west of Riga, Latvia,
Papensholm - near Kuressaare, Saaremaa (island), Estonia.

Cheers

Marek

Varese2002 · 29 March 2009, 11:16 AM

Thanks Marek for the interesting names.

About the Lohner flying boat there is a 'small' side story.

After the Armistice an Allied Naval Armistice Commission (Aircraft section) carried out the inspection of German aircraft, stations buildings, hangars etc. according to Aericle XXVII of Naval Terms of Armistice.

The Allied Naval Armistice Commission consisted of US, French, Italian, English and Japanese Navy personnel (the English had R.A.F. personnel in the commission).

There report was filed on December 17, 1918.

The report gives very detailed information about the Navy machines found at that time in the German Navy bases.

The Baltic bases of the German were not inspected, but the Germans were required to send detailed listings of machines.

The lists give that on the Navy base of Seddin there was a single example of a Lohner Boat (- that is the description in the list -) with the number 514.

Here we have it. In december 1918 there still existed one Lohner boat with number 514 - as given by the Germans.

When you verify the number 514 in the Peter M. Grosz - list of Marine numbers, you will find that 511 - 516 are given as Brandenburg FB planes. In the comments Grosz wrote 'known as Lohner flying boats'.

So researching history is not really easy

By the way Seddin (Stolp) is about 120 km from Danzig.

Cheers

Kees

Lodzermensch · 29 March 2009, 12:21 PM

Hello,

Here is a continuation of travels with National Geographic.

Kees,

I’m a bit confused with the name Seddin. This is a tiny place, now called Zydowo, about 40-50 km away from sea-shore. It is rather strange place for navy base.

By the way, according to my knowledge there was a base for Schutte-Lanz airship known as Luftschiffhafen Seddin but there is another place of that name – Seddin near Potsdam. I do not know where Luftschiffhafen was located.

Stolp is a place different from Seddin. Nowadays it is called Slupsk in Pomeranian, Poland. It is located about 20 km from the coast. Zydowo is about 50 km south-west of Slupsk.

Greetings

Marek

Varese2002 · 29 March 2009, 01:16 PM

Hi Marek.

Seddin is the name of the German naval base in the 1918 report of the Allied Commission. My Polish contact who is studying on the aviation in Gdansk (Danzig) and surroundings like Putzig gave me the information about Seddin and its now Polish name.

History in the eastern part of Europe is (extra) complex because of the shifting of land borders during the time.

Cheers

Kees

Lodzermensch · 29 March 2009, 02:05 PM

Kees,

Unfortunately, I can not confirm or deny location of naval bases in Pomeranian, except Putzig. I can only help in identification of some places. As I have pointed previously – Stolp was German name for Slupsk without doubts. I have found only one place in the middle Pomeranian which was called Seddin. Now this is Zydowo. This village is situated near a small lake. That is all I know.

Quote:

Seddin is the name of the German naval base in the 1918 report of the Allied Commission

Maybe Germans fooled Allied Commission

Quote:

History in the eastern part of Europe is (extra) complex because of the shifting of land borders during the time.

Yes indeed

Cheers

Marek

Lodzermensch · 29 March 2009, 02:21 PM

Hello again,

Kees,

I have just found something interesting on the topic. I hope you are familiar with German.

Luftfahrt-Anfänge in Pommern und Stolp

Cheers

Marek

Varese2002 · 29 March 2009, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodzermensch

Hello again,

Kees,

I have just found something interesting on the topic. I hope you are familiar with German.

Luftfahrt-Anfänge in Pommern und Stolp

Cheers

Marek

Thanks Marek for this reference, I will give it a detailed read tomorrow (my German is okay, having been 'pestered' on school during 5 years with the difficult Fälle........

.

Cheers

Kees