Breguet's ID Challenge #600

[Lodzermensch]

Hello Kees,

Marek, sure we are in the Breguet Challenge for the period 1914 - 1918, according to rule 3

Yes, I perfectly realized that, however there were some aircrafts designed or built before 1914 and remaining in service in 1914 or longer, in previous challenges. As usual it comes to how to interpret the phrase: “...have left the ground during 1914-1918 period”. Of course, I have no idea what had happened to the Morane Saulnier seaplane after the Monaco race but I assume that it was not written-off shortly afterwards.

To be honest, I am not entirely convinced that the Morane Saulnier looked like this one pictured here.

Greetings

Marek

[Varese2002]

Marek, I have a picture of a Morane-Saulnier pusher biplane floatplane which looks somewhat like a Farman. This one was entered for the April 1913 Monaco Concours International d'Hydroaeroplanes, with as pilot Eugene Gilbert. Sure the machine differs at divers points from the machine of the Challenge, more than the undercarriage (floats) only. I have not looked up how the machine performed at the contest in Monaco, or turned up at all at the start

Cheers

Kees

[Breguet]

Originally Posted by EdStevens

So weird. The rudder is very much the shape of the Farman F.40, and the triangular kingpost on the tail also fits, but the front of the aircraft is more like a Breguet or Voisin. Did we actually rule out Breguet as the manufacturer, Breguet?

No, but I will now!

[Breguet]

Originally Posted by Varese2002

Marek, sure we are in the Breguet Challenge for the period 1914 - 1918, according to rule 3 Kees

According to his War Diary the pilot who flew it did so on the 6th February 1916 so well within our period - though not admittedly a front-line airplane also (for yet another hint) it is not French (or US either Kees).

[Dave_Kent]

So, I will speculate, (havind had so much success at this), that if you have been looking through a pilot's War Diary, he is likely a fellow Australian, learning to fly in England, and at this date, I would normally guess RNAS.

But, R. A. Little joined the RFC in January 1916, and you are/were working on a book on Little, so perhaps he's the pilot.

[Dave_Kent]

Sorry, Little was RNAS (thought so) bad source.

[Aquilius]

Are we looking here at an aircraft opperated by the British in Africa?

In Early 1916 the No.26 “Springbok” Squadron of the RFC that was part of the SAAC was located at Mombasa (Kenya) doing photo-reconnaissance and railway-bonbing missons in East Africa. They had obtained six Farman HF.27’s via the Admiralty and Major General van der Spuy directly from the Farman factory in Buc, France.

Always connected to them in literature is the mention of another RNAS group (No.7 Sqn) that operated from Mafia Island (Tanzania) in the same time. They were flying two Voisin-Farman’s, or sometimes called Voisin-Farman III and two Caudron G 3. They ended their mission after sinking the german steamer “Königsberg” in the Rufiji Delta in July 1916.
After two were lost quickly one of each was servicable only. I haven’t found an exactly type designation for these ”Voisin-Farman’s” that are also named ”Henri Farman’s” sometimes.

I can’t believe the RNAS was using 1909-models in wartime and then in the tropics.
But here the all-steel-tubed HF.27 with Salmson C-U radial engine had proved it’s reliability in 1915. It was already outdated this time even though the Salmson engine could improve it’s performance. Voisin-type Farman fits perfectly a characterisation of the HF.27.
In Britain Airco and Grahame-White licence built a range of Farman aircraft. Airco didn’t allotted own designations to them and I’m missing a few G-W numbers. Could it be one of them? How about type 16 or type 17?


I’m sorry, but I’m still sticking on the Farman HF.27.
The donwnward moving tailbooms, the cocpit-nacelle, wings, struts, and the position of the undercarriage is too obvious. And as longer as I look at the picture I see upright side-radiators for the Salmson engine and even the wheel suspension fits…
Not to talk about the rudder.







@AROTH:

If I’m right (what I don’t think), you can try your luck with Caudron G.3 for beeing the aircraft from what the shot was taken.
But I believe from the wing position it is rather a pusher of the same kind (equal span, 3-bay).


Cheers

Aquilius

[Froggy]

Bonjour

Here is another view of the HF 27

http://www.earlyaviator.com/archive/.../HF_type27.jpg


the least we can say is that there are similarities
with that of our challenge!

Cordialement
Bruno

[Rbailey]

Bruno - I agree with you. Perhaps it had another manufacturer's designation, but it is externally indistinguishable from an H.F. 27 from anything I can see.

[Varese2002]

Earlier in this Challenge, Breguet has ruled out all Farman types including the Russian versions . Also ruled out is Breguet, as are all French and USA machines. Maybe we should look to the neutral countries (Spain, Sweden, Switzerland) and/or such little known areas like South America (Rbailey ?) or Japan (not that I found any machine very like this one there )

Cheers

Kees