Breguet's ID Challenge #600

Dave_Kent · 5 July 2009, 06:45 AM

At October 2, 1915 I have 7 G W machines at Chingford, these being 1152, 1321, 3151, 3152, 3153, 3159, 3162. 3151 - 3162 are Type 1600s, so (hopefully) this aeroplane is 1152 or 1321.

Varese2002 · 5 July 2009, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breguet

This is no time to be mudding the waters still further Marek !!

AND Grahame-White had earler designs than the type XV after all. Anyone have a listing for aircraft at Chingford 1915/1916 ?

Grahame White had earlier designs before the Type XV, but the models described by J.M.Bruce in The Aeroplanes of the Royal Flying Corps (Military Wing) fits the bill for the Challenge machine. The big differences are the four wheel undercarriage and the form of the single rudder in the Challenge machine.

Second point is that the only Grahame White machine used by the RNAS was the Grahame White Type XV (Admiralty Type 1600). Reference: Sturtivant.

This all but rules out that Marlowe flew a Grahame White machine from the RNAS or of the RFC.

Perhaps there is evidence provided in the C&C article about the exact model what Marlowe then flew in February 1916. If not I would vote for the identification of the Challenge machine as a Henry Farman HF.27 as already mentioned by others.

Cheers

Kees

Varese2002 · 5 July 2009, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_Kent

At October 2, 1915 I have 7 G W machines at Chingford, these being 1152, 1321, 3151, 3152, 3153, 3159, 3162. 3151 - 3162 are Type 1600s, so (hopefully) this aeroplane is 1152 or 1321.

1152 was a Royal Aircrat Factory B.E.2C licenced built by Grahame-White Aviation Co. Ltd.

1321 Grahame-White XV Henry Farman Pusher Type Pusher Biplane (60 hp Le Rhône) built at Hendon.
At Chingford 23.4.15: 70 hp Gnome by 20.6.15; 80 hp Gnome by 10.15; Wrecked 14.10.15 (PFSL KV Hooper); deleted 25.10.15

Obviously Marlowe could not have flown 1321 at 6th February 1916

References: Sturtivant - Royal Navy aircraft serials and units 1911-1919

Cheers

Kees

Dave_Kent · 5 July 2009, 08:05 AM

Could 1321 have been rebuilt unofficislly at Chingford? This would explain its altered appeaeence.

Froggy · 5 July 2009, 08:17 AM

Bonjour à tous

Breguet I really began to wonder if your photo could not been mis-captioned

The aircraft on your photo is a HF 27 at 99.99%

The HF 27 was used by RNAS for bombing and attempting to intercept Zeppelins, even if in early 1916 I think that they were no more in active service

Cordialement
Bruno

Varese2002 · 5 July 2009, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_Kent

Could 1321 have been rebuilt unofficislly at Chingford? This would explain its altered appeaeence.

Unofficially everything is possible as a hypothesis

As long as there is no proof is it sensible to trust the records as available in the archives and interpreted by Sturtivant. 1321 is definitely out for this Challenge machine.

Cheers

Kees

Varese2002 · 5 July 2009, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Froggy

Bonjour à tous

Breguet I really began to wonder if your photo could not been mis-captioned

The aircraft on your photo is a HF 27 at 99.99%

The HF 27 was used by RNAS for bombing and attempting to intercept Zeppelins, even if in early 1916 I think that they were no more in active service

Cordialement
Bruno

I have been away for a few hours, my nails are gone

when looking at the finale match of Wimbledon tennis. --

Back to our 5-setter.

The Henry Farman HF.27 was used by the RNAS in the following numbers

1550-1555
3617-3636
3900-3919
8238-8249
9099
9134-9153
9251-9275
N3000-N3049

Sturtevant gives a small history about each serial, but in none of them the name Chingford is named. Looking through the records most of the machines went east (Mudros, Aegean, Dardanelles, Mesopotamia, Australia, East Indies), some went to Dunkerque ('Duinkerken'), Coudekerque ('Koudekerke').

It is not mentioned in the small histories per serial (HF.27) that they were used for anti-Zeppelin actions and / or bombing.

So there is (also) no evidence for the Farman HF.27 in Chingford. It is beginning very interesting to see a scan of the part of the war diary of Marlowe describing the events of February 6th, 1916.

Cheers

Kees

Breguet · 5 July 2009, 03:31 PM

OK, time to wrap this up.

Marlowe refers to this machine as the Graham-White "Nacelle" Pusher. On Page 258 Bruce refers to these machines and what is and isn't known about them. He then says:

Quote:

"Unfortunately it is not possible to isolate the history of this Grahame-White pusher plane, for surviving records do not identify it specifically."

Despite this 'lack of surviving records' Bruce obviously has some record of it or why mention it? Also Bruce is talking here of the RFC. As to the RNAS Sturtivant - Royal Navy aircraft serials and units 1911-1919 isn't complete either as I found out when going through the log books of both Dallas and Little aircraft used in training seemed a very interesting hodge-podge. The aircraft Dallas soloed on was identified only by its old racing number (109) and wasn't apparently never allocated an RNAS serial.

So this is the decision:

As Flamingo was the first to mention both Farman and Grahame-White I'll award the point and next challenge to him. To Rufe I'll give .5 for being the first to present a piece together of the jigsaw.

Scoreboard at the end of Challenge #600 Graham-White "Nacelle" Pusher or HF 27.

111.80 Varese2002 ☼
78.20 Dave_Kent ☼
66.20 Rbailey ☼
33.30 Cruze☼
18.70 YavorD
18.65 Froggy
17.70 Aquilius
15.20 Flamingo
15.20 richard B
13.30 Rod Filan
11.90 Lodzermensch
09.50 matte_kudasai
08.40 JohnMacG
08.10 Breguet
07.70 Dan-San
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.30 Patrick
07.10 Colin A. Owers
06.70 Ampovandak
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
05.70 Doc
05.70 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
05.70 AROTH
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.45 GregE
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Gilles
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 Tom L..........................have to wait 12 hours

04.70 dpolglaze........................ may start immediately
04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.20 Rufe
04.00 greenknight
03.70 Berman
02.50 Gregoire
02.50 Rexee
02.10 Crankcase
02.00 austin08
02.00 Brad
02.00 Rickenbaron
02.00 sobrien
01.70 Kilian
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.50 Albatros_Ace
01.30 Cigogne
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 airplane176
01.00 Catfish
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Luf-Rick
01.00 Mike Westorp
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 SL DIII
01.00 Tripehound
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 ’14-‘18aviationcollector
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd30
00.30 Mad Mac
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14
00.20 Paul_J._Fisher

Froggy · 6 July 2009, 02:45 AM

Bonjour

Here is the GW type XV N° 3156 flown by A.F. Marlowe on 2 December 1915 at Chingford.

http://www.crossandcockade.com/pdf/Marlowe.pdf

in that article it is said about Marlowe

August 1915 – transferred to the Royal Naval Air Service –
trained at Chingford, Essex. Gazetted as a Sub-Lieutenant,
RNAS on 7 August 1915.

February 1916 – posted to Yarmouth Air Station for anti-
Zeppelin and anti-submarine patrols over the North Sea.
Flight Sub-Lieut RNAS in 1916.

Cordialement
Bruno

Breguet · 6 July 2009, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Froggy

February 1916 – posted to Yarmouth Air Station for anti-Zeppelin and anti-submarine patrols over the North Sea.
Flight Sub-Lieut RNAS in 1916.Cordialement Bruno

Though in that same article, page 213, it says that on February 6th (when he took the flight in question) he was still at Chingford. Unfortunately the article doesn't mention a flight on the 6th only a Bristol TB 8 on the 1st and a MF Shorthorn on he 7th. Mind you it does say these are only extracts from the logbook.