Invisible silent German aeroplane in 1914

[Varese2002]

I had expected an immediate reaction, but two of them that is overdoing it. For the rest you are fully entitled to your opinion and have a good day.

Kees

[bristol scout]

Originally Posted by Varese2002

I had expected an immediate reaction, but two of them that is overdoing it. For the rest you are fully entitled to your opinion and have a good day.

Kees

You were right to expect an immediate reaction--but you say it almost as a criticism---and as for double posting in error---well, hold up hands all who have done that-----and at least i apologised for the double post----but not for the contents -------you are a defender of 'that' book--I and many others here (and elsewhere) are not!

Thanks for allowing me my opinion.
Dave.

[rammjaeger]

Do we have an echoe here?

[bristol scout]

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

Do we have an echoe here?

Or an echo of an echo.......

Dave

[rammjaeger]

Weyl or not Weyl, the biographical data of early German aviation pioneers are seldom researched by modern historians and often a bit flawed. The “common” sources claim:
Karl F. M. Rösner (Rösner is a frequently occuring name in German speaking countries) lived from 1880 to 1942. He was born in the Sudetenland (German speaking Bohemia) and studied at the Technical University in Vienna. In 1910 he worked a short time for Rumpler then he designed an Eindecker. The latter was built in Hamm but crashed the same year. After the re-building some flights were made in Münster. [Probably the meeting and some month long cooperation with Knubel followed here.] In 1911 he is reported to have won the 1st price for “non-pilots” during a flight competition in Cologne. In 1913 he constructed a flying boat for Albatros and between 1913 and 1920 his successful work for Gotha followed.

Lange reports Rösner built an Oneseater-Eindecker (Taube-copy) with 25 (?) hp Wunderlich motor and says: “die durchsichtige Cellonbespannung hatte ein dünnes Drahtgewebe als tragende Unterlage” – that fits to Kees´picture.

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

Weyl or not Weyl, the biographical data of early German aviation pioneers are seldom researched by modern historians and often a bit flawed. The “common” sources claim:
Karl F. M. Rösner (Rösner is a frequently occuring name in German speaking countries) lived from 1880 to 1942. He was born in the Sudetenland (German speaking Bohemia) and studied at the Technical University in Vienna. In 1910 he worked a short time for Rumpler then he designed an Eindecker. The latter was built in Hamm but crashed the same year. After the re-building some flights were made in Münster. [Probably the meeting and some month long cooperation with Knubel followed here.] In 1911 he is reported to have won the 1st price for “non-pilots” during a flight competition in Cologne. In 1913 he constructed a flying boat for Albatros and between 1913 and 1920 his successful work for Gotha followed.

Lange reports Rösner built an Oneseater-Eindecker (Taube-copy) with 25 (?) hp Wunderlich motor and says: “die durchsichtige Cellonbespannung hatte ein dünnes Drahtgewebe als tragende Unterlage” – that fits to Kees´picture.

Actually Rösner built two Eindecker (!) or perhaps built the second one on the remnants of the remains of the crashed first. Surely Lange had access to the original source (Flugsport 1911) as had Weyl. I will look it up.
It is interesting that the Cellon story dates back at least to 1911, but that today the attention is more on the very few (or only?) Fokker Eindecker (1915) that were fitted with it Will have something to do with the publicity conscious person of Anthony Fokker, I think.

By the way, the Eindecker of Knubel is almost impossible to find as it has been distorted into Knabel on the site of early aviator. As copying is the great thing on internet, Knabels are everywhere... The firm is called Flugzeugbauanstalt A. Knubel, Münster in Westfalen.

I will inform Rod Filan about this mistake. Not bad for Weyl that he correctly identified Knubel.

The picture of the Knubel Eindecker is here.

Cheers

Kees

[bristol scout]

Hi kees,
That's a bit like saying 'not bad for Stuart Lake that he correctly identified Ike Clanton!!!!!!!

Does'nt make 'Wyatt Earp-frontier marshall' a work of historical importance i'm afraid
Dave.

[rammjaeger]

I guess it has also something to do with the question unknown pre-war experimental airplane vs famous WWI airplane, Kees.
The latter is better known and all its versions attract more attention.

Thank you for the link to "Knabel-Knubel".

[Varese2002]

As promised I looked in Flugsport 1911 No.18 where the Rösner Eindecker is described.

Dipl.Ing. Carl Rösner [first name in Flugsport spelled as Carl] built the Rösner Eindecker with the help of the Baugesellschaft C. Kallenbach GmbH at Hamm. Model tests were conducted by the Maschinen-Laboratorium der Königl. Technischen Hochschule in Charlottenburg.
The wings had a Zanonia form. Actually two models were made, which differed slightly. Eindecker Rösner I had two skids ('Kufen'), while the Eindecker Rösner II had a central skid.
The article describes the great effort to apply the 0,1 mm thick Celluloid. The difficulty was the glue. The celluloid apparently also fluctuates regarding the weather (humidity, temperature), which would make it dangerous to fly.
The Eindecker Rösner II was fitted with the normal fabric, making it in total 12 kg heavier. Strangely enough the "fabric' machine left the ground much easier than the Celluloid machine. Reason was thought that the smooth Celluloid wing did flow away the compressed air very quickly [German ... was wohl darauf zurückzuführen ist, daß die gloatte Oberfläche der Celluloidflügel ein rasches Abströmen der komprimierten Luft ermöglicht. . The high imflammability of Celluloid is given as a distinct risk, especially when used for military purposes.
Engine was a 'nameless' 25 PS engine. Although low powered, the machine had a very short take off run, a good result with a machine of 230 kg (without pilot) and ca. 27 m2 wing area.
Rösner flew on June 21 and 24, 1911 some flights with the machine on Flugplatz Loddenheide near München. He had made till then no flight at all and of course no flight brevet. Flying height was about 10 meter !

So far the story in 1911.

It is somewhat surprising that in 1911 all (or most) of the behaviour of Celluloid was known and that in 1915 new experimens were started with this covering. Possibly the knowledge of 1911 had already 'evaporated' in 1915, so it was honestly presented as a new technology.

Knubel is not named in this article, so one wonders if there was any cooperation between the two.

Cheers

Kees

PS.: The reply of Bristol was for me as a humble non-native writer totally incomprehensible .

[rammjaeger]

Knubel is not named in this article, so one wonders if there was any cooperation between the two.

Kees, a potential explanation was already given on a website about local history:

Gemeinsam mit Anton Knubel verbesserten sie die Maschinen. Nach vielen Versuchen konnten Knubel und Rösner am 7. Mai 1911 ihr Flugzeug der Öffentlichkeit vorstellen. Kurz darauf trennten sich beide.

If people are separating in anger then they are often claiming the full honour of common projects for its own. Rösner could have been the real engineer but Knubel could have contributed material and money (being a bycicle trader).

Furthermore Flugsport writes nonsense if claiming that Loddenheide is situated near München! Or did you accidently misprint the location, Kees?

Two aviation pioneers starting from the same airfield at the same time with the same idea but different projects makes no sense to me.
I think the solution of the contradiction is simple to get - anybody should look at the local paper of Münster from 1910 to 1915 but I leave this time-consuming task to people with a more specific interest in this matter.

Regards
Hannes

PS: The C or K question for Rösner is probably a product of the 1901 Rechtschreibreform and one can hardly know the correct answer without seeing the birth certificate. As well some modernised the won name from Carl or Curt to Karl or Kurt later in their lifes. Now he have the same silly situation after the last unnecessary reform again.