Breguet's aircraft ID challenge #623

[Aquilius]

Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to Breguet’s aircraft ID challenge #623!

After an invalid round I present something that definetely has not been offered before.



What are we looking at here?


The score board after #622 remains:

115.00 Varese2002 ☼
82.20 Dave_Kent ☼
71.20 Rbailey ☼
33.30 Cruze☼
19.65 Froggy
18.70 YavorD
17.70 Aquilius
15.20 Flamingo
15.20 richard B
13.30 Rod Filan
12.90 Lodzermensch
09.50 matte_kudasai
08.70 Breguet
08.70 Dan-San
08.40 JohnMacG
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.30 Patrick
07.10 Colin A. Owers
06.70 Berman
06.70 Ampovandak
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
05.70 Doc
05.70 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
05.70 AROTH
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.45 GregE
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Gilles
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 Tom L..........................have to wait 12 hours

04.70 dpolglaze........................ may start immediately
04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.20 Rufe
04.00 greenknight
03.00 Brad
02.50 Gregoire
02.50 Rexee
02.10 Crankcase
02.00 austin08
02.00 Rickenbaron
02.00 sobrien
01.70 Kilian
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.50 Albatros_Ace
01.30 Cigogne
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 airplane176
01.00 Catfish
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Luf-Rick
01.00 Mike Westorp
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 SL DIII
01.00 Tripehound
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 ’14-‘18aviationcollector
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Stig Jarlevik
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd30
00.30 Mad Mac
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14
00.20 Paul_J._Fishe

Previous Challenges: Aeroplanes 1914 - 1918* -* Breguet's Aircraft Challenge* --

THE RULES

1. The thread title must be "Bréguet's aircraft ID challenge #......"
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The completed aircraft must have been either; designed, built or have left the ground during the '14-'18 period and be identifiable by the poster.
4. The photo must show the whole aircraft - from whatever angle, or at least 2 views of a 3 view drawing (photo by preference).
5. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
6. (always check the list at earlyaviator.com/br.challenge when in doubt !)
7. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of an aircraft for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the aircraft is submitted.
8. Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they become an ACE. Once they become an ACE they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
9. To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
10. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
11. If an ace gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
12. The final arbiter in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet

Have a good hunt!

Aquilius

[Lodzermensch]

Hello,

This is a shot in the dark, so do not laugh at me if I have found a mare’s nest.

It seams to be Hansa-Brandenburg ZM II – a smaller version of ZM I. Unfortunately I do not have any photographic evidence and can only base on some similarities to H-B ZM I and Brandenburg 05.05 which were subjects of previous challenges. My clues are – the shape of fuselage, two-bay wings - I mean two pairs of interplane struts outside the engine, shape of center section struts, two engines “hung” between wings and two pairs of main undercarriage wheels.

Greetings

Marek

[Flamingo]

In Nowarra 50 years the picture is captioned Daimler G.I

[Rbailey]

The Daimler GI was a 4-engined machine with the engines mounted in push-pull nacelles, so that works.

[Aquilius]

Well, my caption says: Daimler R.II

And that comes direct from the company.

Daimler-Motoren-Gesellschaft - Aelteste Fabrik von Petrolmotoren,
by Mercedes-Benz AG, 1990, no ISBN (a 100 years company review)

My assumtion is the Daimler R.I then must have been the copy built of the Union G.I bomber, also a 4-engined machine in the same layout.

There is nothing told about in that book. Did Novarra offer some notes about?
I'm not sure if at this stage in 1916 there was made a difference between G-class aircraft (2 engines) and R-class types (3 or more engines). The Zeppelin-Staaken machines got "R" designations from summer 1916 on.

I think we are talking about the same aircraft here. Only I like to find the propper designation for. Does somebody know if it was registered in official documents that time?


Cheers

Aquilius

[Flamingo]

From Bruno Lange:

G.I 4x 100hp Daimler in tandem , 3 examples built in 1915

G.II 2x 220hp Daimler, tried in tractor and pusher config. 1 built in 1916, similar to G.I

G.III 3x 90hp Daimler in fuselage driving 2 tractor props with transmission, 1 built in 1917.

[Rbailey]

I have seen somewhere, but can't remember where, that the original G classification of some or all of these was changed to R.

[Aquilius]

Interesting aspects!

The facts told in the DMG book are:

"Das 1916 von der DMG gebaute Großflugzeug R II wurde mit vier Daimler-Motoren des Typs DF-160 (D.III) von je 170 PS angetrieben"

(This aircraft R.II built 1916 by the DMG was powered by four Daimler engines of the DF-160 type, each with 170 hp.)

This "Daimler Flugmotor" (Daimler aero engine) DF-160 is the always mentioned 'Mercedes D.III' usually rated at 160 hp.
Anyhow there is no accordance with Lange.
Unfortunately there is nothing more in my book. Maybe it is a later version of the "G.I". It sounds a little courious that three machines should have been built with 100 hp engines only. Didn't the first copy prove that this was far too less power?




Aquilius

[Varese2002]

The last article of Peter M. Grosz was about Daimler aircraft in Over the Front Vol 21 (2005) Issue No.3. Surely there is something about the Großflugzeug series of Daimler.

Vol. 21, Issue No. 3

Cheers

Kees

[Rbailey]

I don't have the OTF, but according to Grosz and Haddow, the first R.I was very similar to the Union G.I and the R.II a near duplicate of the (second) R.I. Because the engines were not accessible in flight, these types were re-designated G.I and G.II - that is,the R designations came first.

There apparently was a G.III. if the caption on the attached is correct.