Morane Saulnier A.I Type 30

Varese2002 · 2 September 2009, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Hi Varese2002:
I had thought that E meant Etainement, training??
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Hi Dan-San. I based myself on Fahey U.S.Army Aircraft (page 12 notes), where it says

Quote:

French Types. Letter or Letters indicate Type; figure, crew. A.2 Corps d'Armée (Corps Obs.), 2 place, B.2; Bombardement, Bn.2: Night bombardment. C.1 Chasse (Pursuit), Ca.1: Cannon-armed Pursuit, E.2 Ecole [School-trainer] ....

Perhaps a real French source would be more correct for this classification of aircraft, but I think Fahey is correct. Perhaps Bruno can look in a good French source for this classification.

It is interesting that Fahey gives in the same note that all A.E.F. models were classified under the numbered Types in 1919. Roman Numericals indicate U.S. equivalents. The MoS 30 got the designation XIV Pursuit-trg...Parasol mono (Pursuit-trg is Pursuit-training). So the A.E.F. had their own classification.

Other A.E.F. machines classified as XIV Pursuit-trg were the Nieuport 17, Nieuport 21, Nieuport 23.

According to Fahey 51 were procured by the A.E.F., of which the first were delivered in June 1918. The machines never got USAAS serials and retained their French codes. Only two Morane-Saulnier machines made it to the USA back serial 64301/64302 [64301 had McCook Field Project Number P170, 64302 had McCook Field Project Number P196]. I have not figured out which M-S type this was.

Cheers

Kees

EricGoedkoop · 3 September 2009, 11:18 AM

Great photo - thanks for sharing!

Is it possible to see a higher-resolution scan? I'm particularly interested in the cowl, forward deck and rigging. It looks like this machine might be armed (which would mean it isn't a Type 30) but I might just be seeing the "hump." A high-res version would be great.

Eric

Old Man · 3 September 2009, 01:54 PM

Regarding the top line on the rudder, Sir.

It is likely there are more numbers behind the 35 showing, but obscured by the black and white film registering black the same as the color of the stripe.

French serials ran in sequence by manufacturer, regardless of type of aeroplane they were applied to. The serial would reflect the total number of machines the firm had supplied to the government, as of the delivery of that machine. Morane-Saulnier had delivered far more than 35 machines to the Aviation Militaire by 1918; serial numbers in the three hundred range were being marked early in 1915 on its products in French service.

I do not have a clue about how the U.S. worked its serials, and suppose it might be possible French manufacturers began a separate run of serials for machines delivered to the U.S., but that is rank and ignorant speculation on my part.

Varese2002 · 3 September 2009, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Man

Regarding the top line on the rudder, Sir.

It is likely there are more numbers behind the 35 showing, but obscured by the black and white film registering black the same as the color of the stripe.

French serials ran in sequence by manufacturer, regardless of type of aeroplane they were applied to. The serial would reflect the total number of machines the firm had supplied to the government, as of the delivery of that machine. Morane-Saulnier had delivered far more than 35 machines to the Aviation Militaire by 1918; serial numbers in the three hundred range were being marked early in 1915 on its products in French service.

I do not have a clue about how the U.S. worked its serials, and suppose it might be possible French manufacturers began a separate run of serials for machines delivered to the U.S., but that is rank and ignorant speculation on my part.

The total production of the Morane Saulnier Type AI (MoS 27, 29 and 30) is not exactly known, but there are reported totals between 1,100 to 1,300 (1). Given all other M-S machines delivered during WW1 to the Aviation Militaire the total number of delivered machines could be around June 1918 something in the 5 figures. Would be interesting to see if your hypothesis is correct, given a high resolution scan of the tail of this machine.

IMO the A.E.F. did not use an own registration system for machines bought locally in France or Italy. Only the two M-S machines (type not defined) that were expedited back to the USA (McCook Field) got a USAAS registration. All used / acquired M-S machines of the A.E.F. were apparently left alone in France after the return home of the A.E.F.

It is interesting that one of the M-S machines that went to McCook (P-196 USAAS 64302) was 'Shipped to museum 2/9/26, ST 22013' (2). I have not searched it out if it really is now somewhere in a (USA) museum.

Cheers

Kees

(1) Source: J.M. Bruce. War planes of the first world war - volume 5, page 117.
(2) Aerofiles here

EricGoedkoop · 3 September 2009, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Varese2002

Only the two M-S machines (type not defined) that were expedited back to the USA (McCook Field) got a USAAS registration. All used / acquired M-S machines of the A.E.F. were apparently left alone in France after the return home of the A.E.F.

It is interesting that one of the M-S machines that went to McCook (P-196 USAAS 64302) was 'Shipped to museum 2/9/26, ST 22013' (2). I have not searched it out if it really is now somwhere in a (USA) museum.

One of the McCook Field machines is now at Fantasy of Flight in Florida. It's been dressed up with a pair of dummy Vickers to look like a Type 29.

I tried to find out what happened to the other some years ago, but never got anywhere with it. There is, of course, another MoS AI Type 30 (also cosmetically altered) at Old Rhinebeck. This machine was bought at auction in the early 80s along with a second one, and as far as I know its history is unknown. I'm not aware of any others in the US - but then again what I'm not aware of could fill a book.

Varese2002 · 3 September 2009, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricGoedkoop

One of the McCook Field machines is now at Fantasy of Flight in Florida. It's been dressed up with a pair of dummy Vickers to look like a Type 29.

------

I found some other pictures of the Morane-Saulnier (ex-McCook field example) here. It is a pity that they 'modified' the pursuit trainer as a MoS 29 standard (two gun machine). Also they have done a lot of painting and marking on the rudder as can be seen here.

Does not look to me very authentic though, although very colourfull

As the machine also was in the Tallman-Mantz collection and probably used in Hollywood films, authenticity may have also suffered before it came in this museum.

Cheers

Kees

YavorD · 4 September 2009, 02:14 AM

By the way, there is very good technical manual for Morane-Saulnier AI (MoS 27, 29, 30).
Morane Saulnier Type "A.I." Manuale Istruzioni (1918)
Regards,
Yavor

Varese2002 · 4 September 2009, 02:57 AM

Thanks for the hint Yavor. Those original manuals of the Morane-Saulnier look interesting, especially as they are described there as M.S. Types XXVII et XXIX, probably the use of Roman numericals was original at that time. There is a discussion on the matter of Roman and Arabic numericals on the French Forum Pages 14-18 here.

This is another tail with inscription, this time from a French replica M-S Type AI. Does not look very authentic too IMO.

Cheers

Kees

YavorD · 4 September 2009, 03:29 AM

Couple of contemporary pictures from a collection preserved in a museum from Belgium.

Quote:

Mos XXVII MS1507

Regards,
Yavor

EricGoedkoop · 4 September 2009, 06:11 AM

Here's a high-res scan of Art's photo:

Two things interest me. First, it's not a machine gun but there is something on the forward deck, projecting from the hump. Is it a camera gun for training?

Second, I've never seen the series of small holes halfway back on the cowl on an other AI. Are they a field modification? And what for?