Breguet's aircraft ID challenge #627

[Aquilius]

Welcome to Breguet's aircraft ID challenge #627!

Here is a new little plane for you to label!

Where was it built? Who designed it and when?


The scoreboard after challenge #626 - the Pontkowski Biplane / Schaap Scout - is:

115.10 Varese2002 ☼
83.00 Dave_Kent ☼
71.40 Rbailey ☼
33.30 Cruze☼
19.70 Aquilius
19.65 Froggy
18.70 YavorD
15.90 Flamingo
15.20 richard B
13.30 Rod Filan
12.90 Lodzermensch
09.50 matte_kudasai
08.70 Breguet
08.70 Dan-San
08.40 JohnMacG
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.30 Patrick
07.10 Colin A. Owers
06.70 Berman
06.70 Ampovandak
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
05.90 Doc
05.70 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
05.70 AROTH
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.45 GregE
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Gilles
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 Tom L..........................have to wait 12 hours

04.70 dpolglaze........................ may start immediately
04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.20 Rufe
04.00 greenknight
03.00 Brad
02.50 Gregoire
02.50 Rexee
02.10 Crankcase
02.00 austin08
02.00 Rickenbaron
02.00 sobrien
01.70 Kilian
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.50 Albatros_Ace
01.30 Cigogne
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 airplane176
01.00 Catfish
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Luf-Rick
01.00 Mike Westorp
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 SL DIII
01.00 Tripehound
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 ’14-‘18aviationcollector
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Stig Jarlevik
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd30
00.30 Mad Mac
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14
00.20 Paul_J._Fishe

Previous Challenges: Aeroplanes 1914 - 1918* -* Breguet's Aircraft Challenge* --

THE RULES

1. The thread title must be "Bréguet's aircraft ID challenge #......"
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The completed aircraft must have been either; designed, built or have left the ground during the '14-'18 period and be identifiable by the poster.
4. The photo must show the whole aircraft - from whatever angle, or at least 2 views of a 3 view drawing (photo by preference).
5. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
6. (always check the list at earlyaviator.com/br.challenge when in doubt !)
7. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of an aircraft for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the aircraft is submitted.
8. Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they become an ACE. Once they become an ACE they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
9. To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
10. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
11. If an ace gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
12. The final arbiter in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.

Have a good hunt!



Aquilius

[Dave_Kent]

This SMALL machine, with its distinctive paint scheme, is Hugh Robinson’s personal “Sport Biplane”. Hugh, (pictured), was the Plant Superintendent for the Aeromarine Plane and Motor Company, and the photo was taken on the runway of the Aeromarine factory at Keyport in 1917. At least one source calls it the Aeromarine Model R-13 (13 was Robinson's lucky number).

[Rbailey]

Aeromarine Type R-13, from 1917, designed by Hugh Robinson. Characterized by small size, sleek fuselage mounted mid-gap. One-off, crashed. See The Aeromarine Website - Aeromarine Airways - Aeromarine Plane and Motor Company

[Varese2002]

This is the 1917 Cootie Model R-13 designed by Hugh Robinson (then general superintendant at the Aeromarine Plane and Motor Company) and built by that Aeromarine company.
This biplane with a 30 hp engine was an early sport plane, testflown by Robinson but later crashed on Long Island with no fatalities. The declaration of war of the USA ended sport flying and Aeromarine turned to manufacturing military machines.

Charateristic of the machine is the mounting of the fuselage 'between' the wings, with strutty connection to upper and lower wing from the fuselage. Pointed nose with a 4-cylinder inline engine.

The man on the picture is Hugh Robinson.

The machine is (on Internet) sometimes named as the Aeromarine Model R-13. This is not supported in the long list of Aeromarine machines in the Thesaurus of the NASM or Aerofiles, as the machine is not even quoted as such (R-13) under the name of Aeromarine. My opinion is that the machine was a 'private venture' of Hugh Robinson, where it came handy that he was high in the organization of Aeromarine, who could built the machine.
The designation Cootie is AFAIK only used in the book of Vergara, no explanation is given about this designation.

Cheers

Kees

Source: George L. Vergara. Hugh Robinson, pioneer aviator. p.118-119

[Aquilius]

Three hits on this little bird and all were right!

In "Aerofiles" it is listed under Hugh Robinson:

robinson-1915
1915 = 1pOB; v: 81. Gross wt: 600# - nothing else.

The year given as 1915 differs to that from the Aeromarine page. But apart from 1917 there is also nothing detailed. In connection with the declaration of war 1917 makes sense.

Then there are questions of the right designation.
I do believe it was a private venture of Hugh. But it was built in the Aeromarine factory and I use to relate the designes to the companies were they were built. Therefore the Aeromarine designation is not that bad. And the 'R' surely stands for Robinson - so the designer is mentioned too.
Why not name it 'Aeromarine Model R-13' ?

I haven't seen the book of Vergara and I don't know how to deal with "Cootie".


Dave was first and offered all I know. So score and #628 to him!
Congratulations!

The scoreboard after challenge #627 -
Aeromarine Model R-13 / Robinson Sport Biplane - is:

115.10 Varese2002 ☼
84.00 Dave_Kent ☼
71.40 Rbailey ☼
33.30 Cruze☼
19.70 Aquilius
19.65 Froggy
18.70 YavorD
15.90 Flamingo
15.20 richard B
13.30 Rod Filan
12.90 Lodzermensch
09.50 matte_kudasai
08.70 Breguet
08.70 Dan-San
08.40 JohnMacG
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.30 Patrick
07.10 Colin A. Owers
06.70 Berman
06.70 Ampovandak
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
05.90 Doc
05.70 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
05.70 AROTH
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.45 GregE
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Gilles
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 Tom L..........................have to wait 12 hours

04.70 dpolglaze........................ may start immediately
04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.20 Rufe
04.00 greenknight
03.00 Brad
02.50 Gregoire
02.50 Rexee
02.10 Crankcase
02.00 austin08
02.00 Rickenbaron
02.00 sobrien
01.70 Kilian
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.50 Albatros_Ace
01.30 Cigogne
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 airplane176
01.00 Catfish
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Luf-Rick
01.00 Mike Westorp
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 SL DIII
01.00 Tripehound
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 ’14-‘18aviationcollector
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Stig Jarlevik
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd30
00.30 Mad Mac
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14
00.20 Paul_J._Fishe


On to the next round!




Aquilius

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Aquilius

----

I haven't seen the book of Vergara and I don't know how to deal with "Cootie".
-----

Recently bought the book of Vengara about the early aviator Hugh Robinson (ISBN 0813013615). It is an interesting little book and at that very cheap to get second hand (that is almost new). Surprising that the daredevil pilot Hugh Robinson lived on unharmed till his eighties. He must have had all the luck of world.

Cheers

Kees

[Rbailey]

"Cootie" was used at that time period to refer to lice or fleas. Could it have been used as a nickname for the small machine, as was the case for other small examples such as the Germanic Flohs?

[Varese2002]

The picture presented of this Hugh Robinson design by Aerofiles is quoted as coming from the magazine Aero Digest 1915. This can at least be checked.

The book of Vergara gives 1917 as the date of this machine. Further it is quoted as weighing 600 pounds, flew eighty-one miles /hour and climbed at a rate of two hundred feet a minute. No mean feat for a thirty-horsepower engine. The machine was priced to sell for eighteen hundred dollars. The war put an early end to sport flying.

IMO the best way would be to call it the Robinson Model R-13. I see the whole adventure as a private venture of Hugh Robinson where he used some personnel and machinery from the Aeromarine company. The responsibility and financing of the machine was IMO all with Robinson and not with Aeromarine. Naming it the Aeromarine R-13 would make the impression that this machine was financed and the responsability of Aeromarine.

Compare it with other instances like Albatros, who built the Pietschker Taube. They were not responsable for the concept and at that not for the crash.

Idem Rumpler who built quite a few machines for others, where the machine got their name.

Also Voisin, who had the earliest factory and built for everybody who had enough money Machines did not get the name of Voisin, but sometimes it was marked on the tail as 'built by Voisin'.

Rbailey, your suggestion of the connotation of cootie feels very plausible, sort of nickname, not a company name.

Cheers

Kees

[Aquilius]

It is always difficult to decide wether to name a machine after it's designer, the financier or the company that built it.

There are many aircrafts built after ideas and concepts of their constructors and not designed after an order of the army or whom ever. The names are not usually related to the designer. All other Aeromarine aircraft are also not named after their designers. Not even the "Aeromarine 8" that was built after the Boland concept. Okay, the 1914 model was somehow a new design.

But is it proven that Robinson built and financed it on his own?
I belive, if it would have been a success Aeromarine would have stepped in for series production.

As it was built by Aeromarine, even under the advise and maybe financed by Robinson, who also was an employee of Aeromarine, I would keep it with Aeromarine. Maybe "Aeromarine-Robinson" ?
Just who is qualified to decide here?


For the Pietschker Eindecker I don't think that came all from him. It was a rotary engined Taube modified after Pietschker's ideas. And Pietschker also was employed by Albatros this time. For me it remains an "Albatros-Pietschker Eindecker".

But maybe I'm thinking too much in stereotypes here by trying to sort these designes after where they were built.


Cheers

Aquilius

[Varese2002]

Sure it remains always difficult to bestowe a name on a machine. Sure we know too little about the circumstances, but it would be a good idea to state the name of Hugh Robinson somewhere.

The registration is sure not in line with the registration pattern of Aeromarine.

Not wanting a big discussion, but Albatros did make a statement in Flugsport directly after the deadly crash of the Pietscher Taube that they were never agreed with the 'moveable' wing construction. As Albatros was accused of responsability for the crash, they made it clear that at least the Pietscher was not their design and that they were never in favour of it and have even told Pietscher so.

Recently I found in a book a picture of the Pietscher Taube with Melli Beese in the pilot seat. The caption stated though that she had never flown the machine in real, it was posing for the photograph.

But I will have to search out a candidate for the Breguet Pre-1914 series

Cheers

Kees