Pfalz Fokker or Albatross

[mik]

Given that late ww1 allied fighters out perform German aircraft except the Fokker DV11 which German aircraft would you choose if you could.
Bruno Stachel (hero of Blue Max) chose to fly the Pfalz D111a till the Fokker DV11 arrived. Not such a silly choice when Fokker Dr1's, Albatross DV's had wing problems. I think but can't prove that the Pfalz was much better than its reputation. In march 1918 give me a Pfalz DX11. Perhaps the riggers would have to work harder but Fokker workmanship is shoddy. The allies might have given him a medal.

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Hi, it's interesting that you mention the Pfalz D.XII. I can't help thinking that it was probably a much better performer than its' reputation suggests either. It's an absolute engineering masterpiece, and I think the major complaint about it was a lack of power - admittedly a very important consideration. It would have been relatively strong and light, and the semi monocoque fuselage was very innovative.

Cheers,

David.

[Chock]

I think at least a little bit of the Pfalz reputation stems from the fact that most of the star Jastas were pretty much in the pocket of Fokker and Albatros. Fokker in particular was very adept at buttering up pilots, presenting them with gifts and such and being chummy with Von Richthofen.

Obviously that would tip the possibility that stuff like the Pfalz would go to the less favoured units, and the problem would be artificially magnified by the fact that the Germans tended to bleed off their star performers to the elite units, meaning the less able pilots would be a little more likely find themselves sitting in a Pfalz. If such less able pilots were then shot down, then it would certainly colour an RFC pilot's opinion of how good the Pfalz was, or was not.

On the German side, the same thing is true to some degree. The Germans thought the Sopwith Triplane wonderful, but much of that reputation is down to the fact that the pilots - especially of the RNAS - who flew it made it seem a wonder. There's little doubt guys like Raymond Collishaw would still have got a lot of kills if flying anything that was reasonably decent in the same way that Richthofen got by in the Fokker DIII and the Halberstadt DII when he had to, even gaining a victory in the Halberstadt.

I wouldn't read too much into the portrayal of the Pfalz being employed for a long time in The Blue Max movie. Most of that is a dramatic license choice because it emphasises the above stuff with regard to the star performers getting the decent planes, also dramatised in that movie with the bit where the Red Baron invites Stachel to join his Jasta. It was probably also to do with the fact that there was a limit to how many replicas they could afford to build for the movie, since the Blue Max Pfalz is in fact a heavily converted Tiger Moth. It's a pretty good movie, but it is only a movie.

Al

[sightreader]

Originally Posted by mik

Bruno Stachel (hero of Blue Max) chose to fly the Pfalz D111a till the Fokker DV11 arrived.

If I recall correctly, the movie tried to point out that quite the opposite was true.

When first reporting, Stachel is shocked to find that he will be given the same "obsolete Pfalz" type that he flew in training (from that, I think we can safely deduce that he's flying a DIII). He is later shown complaining about the performance of his Pfalz: "She wasn't made yesterday," (I think) the mechanic says, and to that he feigns surprise, "Oh, is THAT what it is?"

After that he is shot down and gets an upgrade to the Triplane.

[Raineranton]

Originally Posted by '14-'18aviationcollector

Hi, it's interesting that you mention the Pfalz D.XII. I can't help thinking that it was probably a much better performer than its' reputation suggests either. It's an absolute engineering masterpiece, and I think the major complaint about it was a lack of power - admittedly a very important consideration. It would have been relatively strong and light, and the semi monocoque fuselage was very innovative.

From: Die Jagdstaffel-Unsere Heimat (Wings of War), Wardiary of Rudolf Stark, Jasta 34b, 77b, 35b:

01.09.1918, Wir sollen wieder neue Maschinen bekommen. Alle haben eine Freude, und besonders die Piloten, die noch keine Fokker haben. Aber die Freude bekam bald einen Dämpfer, denn es waren keine Fokker, die zugewiesen wurden, sondern Pfalz D XII.
Was ist Pfalz D XII? Kein Mensch hat etwas darüber gehört, niemand weiß etwas davon.
Wir weigern uns, diese Maschinen zu nehmen. Es gab lange Telefongespräche; die Maschinen sollen sehr gut sein, sogar in Manchem noch besser als die Fokker (na ja!), und wir sollten sie doch nehmen, Fokker seien keine mehr da, und die neuen Pfalz wären immer noch besser als die alten Albatros, und wenn wieder Fokker da seien, könnten wir immer wieder tauschen.
Also nehmen wir halt die Pfalz.
Wir fahren zum Park und lassen uns die Maschinen aushändigen. Sehr vertrauenserweckend sehen sie nicht aus. Rumpf und Steuer wie gewöhnlich. Die Tragdecks etwas gedrungener, und darin eine Unzahl von Spannkabeln. Das Ding sieht aus wie eine Harfe. Wir sind schon zu sehr an die verspannungslosen Tragdecks bei Fokker gewöhnt und deshalb schon verwöhnt.
Jeder ist mit einem Vorurteil in die neue Maschine gestiegen, und man hat sofort daran allesmögliche auszusetzen gehabt. Bei der Staffel war die Meinung nicht anders. Der Werkmeister hat gebrummt, wegen der Schwierigkeit der Verspannung, und die Monteure haben geschimpft, wegen der vielen Arbeit beim Auf- und Abmontieren und wegen der Unhandlichkeit der Bedienung.
Wer nicht musste, wollte die Pfalz nicht fliegen. Und wer sie bekam, hat sich nur ungern darauf eingeflogen.—
Später sind die Piloten dann ganz gut zurecht gekommen. Die Maschinen stiegen gut und kamen überall mit den Fokker mit, sie waren im Drücken sogar etwas schneller. Aber beim Kurven und im Kampf waren sie schwerfällig und konnten sie mit den Fokker keinen Vergleich aushalten.
Die Fokker war ein Vollblüter, der die kleinste Handbewegung spürte und den Willen des Lenkers beinahe schon vorausahnte. Die Pfalz war ein schwerfälliger Landgaul, der sich hart in die Zügel legt und stur nur roher Gewalt gehorchte.
Wer die Pfalz fliegen musste, tat es, weil eben nichts Besseres da war; aber jeder schielte neidisch auf die Fokker und hoffte auf einen baldigen besseren Tausch.

My (sorry, but roughly) translation, hope, everybody will understand it:

01.09.18, we should again get new machines. All are very happy, especially the pilots, which don´t have a Fokker (Fokker D VII) till yet. But the pleasure became to blur, because there were no Fokkers, which were assigned, but Pfalz D XII.

What is a Pfalz D XII? No person had heard about it, nobody don´t know anything about it.

We refuse, to take these machines. There were long telephone calls; the machines are to be very good, especially some kind better as the Fokker (oh well!), and we should take them, there are no Fokkers available, and the new Pfalz were even better, than the old Albatrosses, and when there will be Fokkers available, we could always change.

So, we take the Pfalz.

We drive to the Park (Armee Flug Park) and let us hand over the machines. They don´t look much inspiring confidence. Fuselage and rudder as usual. The wings are a little bit closer and there are many bracing cables between it. The thing looks like a harp. We are too much accustomed to the wings without bracing cables of the Fokker and therefore already spoilt.

Everybody got in with prejudice in these machines, and one instantly finds all sorts of bad things on it. At the Staffel (Jasta 35b) the meaning was no different. The work master grumbled, because of the difficulty of the bracing cables, and the mechanics have blustered, because of the many work of the assembling and removing and because of the unhandiness of the system.

Who was not obliged to fly it, would not fly the Pfalz. And who got it, unwillingly flew it…

Later the pilots handled it well. The machines climbed well and were all about able to fly with the Fokkers, they were even better in spinning. But at the turning and the fighting they were clumsy and they could not hold any comparison to the Fokker.

The Fokker was a thoroughbred, who felt the lowest movement of the hand and the will of the pilot nearly in advance. The Pfalz was a clumsy farm horse, which must be hard to rein in and stolid obeyed rude force.

Who must fly the Pfalz, did it, because it was no better machine available; but everybody looks jealous to the Fokker and hoped for a sooner better change.
Rainer

[Raineranton]

sorry, I´ve sent it twice.....
...so I cancelled the text.

Rainer

[sightreader]

Originally Posted by Raineranton

[B]My (sorry, but roughly) translation, hope, everybody will understand it:

Wow! Thank you so much for that information! That is the kind of document that would be very hard to get in English: and it tells me a lot about the mysterious D12 that would be hard to figure out otherwise!

[Gregvan]

Hi All,

It was very nice of Raineranton to translate that section from "Die Jagdstaffel Unsere Heimat". Very nice, indeed! And a very good translation, too.

However, Sightreader, you might also want to pick up a copy of Wings of War, the English translation of Stark's book which was first published by Ian Hamilton in 1933. It has been re-printed several times since. Excerpts from Stark's comments on the Pfalz D.XII have been published in Peter Grosz' old Profile Publication No. 199 on the Pfalz D.XII, Jack Herris' Pfalz Aircraft of World War 1", the Osprey book Pfalz Aces of World War 1 and no doubt in some other sources too.

[Major Larabee]

Originally Posted by Chock

I wouldn't read too much into the portrayal of the Pfalz being employed for a long time in The Blue Max movie. Most of that is a dramatic license choice because it emphasises the above stuff with regard to the star performers getting the decent planes, also dramatised in that movie with the bit where the Red Baron invites Stachel to join his Jasta. It was probably also to do with the fact that there was a limit to how many replicas they could afford to build for the movie, since the Blue Max Pfalz is in fact a heavily converted Tiger Moth. It's a pretty good movie, but it is only a movie.

Al

I think Mik is probably refering to the book by Jack Hunter than the film of the same name, in the film he never flies the DVII!!
Also one of the Blue Max Pfalz, there were two! was built as per the original using the wooden structure. Interestinly this was not as well like by the pilots, my father included, as the fuselage would move in flight and they prefered the other A/C. This was not a modified Tiger Moth as you say, it as based on a Tiger Moth Fuselage but there the similarity ends.

[John McKenzie]

Hi all. NONE of the aircraft used in the " Blue Max " Film , can be used as any sort of a " Yardstick " from which the performances of the ORIGINALS may be judged .Aside from the fact that NONE had an original engine ; Some ( DVII's ) had 6 cylinder Gypsy Queen 's and Pfalz (sic) had the less powerful 4 cylinder majors....The DVII's were over weight and had wrongly made wings and were of course underpowered.
Even more greatly underpowered , neither of the " Pfalz "( I dont think you can call them that !, even with a big stretch of the imagination ?) were built to any sort of original Drawings or even useing the "Flight" information then available ....So one was based on a Tiger Moth fus. (certainly NOT on a Pfalz ! ) , The other also based on very roughly scaled up(1/72) Aeromodeler drawings ,but with the structure made up from the info shown in them .....About all you can say of either, is that they have a " superficial resembalence" to Pfalz aircraft only.....Nothing more ....( Sorry , harsh , but TRUE ! )
IF you want to compare performances of originals , then you ONLY can use original and contempory reports etc. (and also to see these in context is also important )...There is of course in some cases today, rebuilt or exact replicas .
However the life and death CONDITIONS of actual combat can never be replicated .
Regards ...John