Help ID Crashed British Machine

R Pope · 7 November 2009, 04:59 AM

Dihedral on the lower plane and flat top wing points to a Camel, not a Pup. Although that could be a result of being wrecked!

CThomas · 8 November 2009, 06:57 AM

Good morning all.

This particular postcard I believe was actually printed here, in the States. It has the typical AZO two up/two down arrow stamp box on back which, correct me if I'm wrong, dates it to 1917+. Could it have been an image from a larger collection of souvenir photo postcards sold to departing US Doughboys or was this the wreck of a U.S. Aviator flying for the British, hence the possible U.S. connection? How about none of the above?

RussGannon · 8 November 2009, 04:06 PM

CThomas

If it is a Camel and not a Pup, then I would go with Bristol's resolution of 70 Sqn. The flight letter & pilot number identification was common in the RFC late 1916 and first half of 1917. It was certainly used by 70 Sqn when it first converted to Camels in July 17. There are well known photos of a captured C flight machine - off the cuff I think 'C5' and downed on 28 July 17. Also 56 Sqn CR's note the letter & number in relation to 70 Sqn Camels cJuly 17 in regards their fights alongside 70 Sqn. Moreover this type of identification marking was generally relaced in the RFC by the the single letter system - A to R in August 17. And 70 Sqn was the only operational RFC Camel squadron up till Sep 17. It is also probable the pilot survived as POW as plane looks to have gone over onto its back after attempting a forced landing.

Cheers Russ

Jim · 9 November 2009, 07:17 AM

I am curious about all of the shrubbery. Looking at the background there is little tree and shrub cover so it seems very unlikely the aircraft just happened to wind up in a pile of the only vegetation in the immediate area. Am I correct that this is an attempt by the Germans to camouflage the wreck with a lot of tree and shrub branches? Could this have been a new model of aircraft at the time that the Germans wanted to preserve until they could tow it away to be closely examined?

bristol scout · 9 November 2009, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim

I am curious about all of the shrubbery. Looking at the background there is little tree and shrub cover so it seems very unlikely the aircraft just happened to wind up in a pile of the only vegetation in the immediate area. Am I correct that this is an attempt by the Germans to camoflage the wreck with a lot of tree and shrub branches? Could this have been a new model of aircraft at the time that the Germans wanted to preserve until they could tow it away to be closely examined?

Very good point Jim---about the camo.--not so sure about the "new model" though.
I suppose it equally could have been covered to save it from enemy shelling until (and if) it was dismantled.

Dave. edit--although they are certainly 'German' figures.

CThomas · 9 November 2009, 09:20 AM

To All-
Thank you for the great observations & for your replies. Please keep them coming! I have learned much from this thread so far.

I agree with some of the other observations in that there appears to be a strong possibility the pilot survived this incident. If that is the case, it would stand to reason he made an attempt to cover the wreck for future retrieval. Whether or not he was made a POW after the fact, is a point I'd love to be settled.

My gut impression is that what we see here, is an attempt by the Germans to camouflage the scene for future recovery. There are at least two soldiers stripped down to their basic uniform. At least one armed guard watches over the scene (two more soldiers are wearing steel helmets-can't tell if they are armed or not). One of the tree branches appears heavy enough that it would have taken some effort to place it over the wreck. This attempt at camouflage looks like a concerted effort done by people with time on their hands.

There are a couple of other interesting details I should mention here that may not be clear in the scan provided. There is a road in the background which can be seen right behind the soldiers standing to the left. On the opposite side of that road, I get the faint impression of there possibly being a barbed wire field. Along this road, I also see at least 2-3 trees.

Could it be possible the pilot survived the accident & had plenty of time to do all this work himself? Maybe. I'm more inclined to think it is an attempt by the Germans to retrieve the wreck at a future date.

-Chuck

ONEALM · 9 November 2009, 10:18 AM

Chuck -

I'm a little late to the party, but this is certainly a Camel from all visual indications.

As to the covering/camo., the pilot's first job after landing behind German lines is destroying the airplane if possible. That doesn't look like it happened!

In the absence of that, the Brit artillary would have attempted to shell it if they were sure their man was out. it desroys the airframe and any curious Germans nearby. Of course they would have to have line of sight to the airplane.

I suspect the camo was the Germans doing trying to avoid giving the Brit artillary an easily recognizable target.

My 2 cents...
Mike

fliegertrooper · 11 November 2009, 08:24 PM

My feeling is that its a Camel too because of the lines of the fuselage and the dihedral of the bottom wing vs. none in the top wing. Still, it could be several other types of aircraft too. What's interesting is the attempt to conceal the aircraft with all the brush and the armed sentries with wearing stalhelms. They wanted to hide it for some reason. Interesting photo.

RussGannon · 12 November 2009, 05:27 PM

If it is a 70 Sqn Camel, then this is the likely short list:

17 Jul 17 Lt Workman pow dow B3779 & Lt Gossett pow N6332
29 Jul 17 Lt McDonald pow B3780
5 Aug 17 2Lt Ellam pow wia B2304
The well photographed C5 was Lt Hume pow on 28 jul 17.

Sounds to sense trying to camoflage a new enemy type whilst awaiting a recovery team. Think I've seen a photo of a Roland C getting same treatment.

Cheers Russ

CThomas · 13 November 2009, 09:17 AM

First off...

Mike-
Your two cents are always welcomed! You've been a wonderful help with my aviation research. Can't thank you enough!

A hearty "Thank you" goes out to all who've replied to this thread. I appreciate your responses to my photo. This is exactly why I've enjoyed being a member here at the Aerodrome Forum.

Russ-
Thank you for this shortlist. I was just going to ask forum members for such a list, if at all possible. It seems most people agree it's a Camel & quite possibly from 70th Squadron. Your 'short list' will be an excellent lead for future research. Thank you!!!