Help ID Crashed British Machine

[bristol scout]

Originally Posted by RussGannon

Cthomas & Graeme

TSTBF is worth its weight in gold if you are a keen researcher.

Graeme

No doubt. Quite a few books I would love to have. Presently got 'How Can a Man Die Better' on order - Isandlwana Zulu War.

Cheers Russ.

Hi Russ,

Your interest in the ZULU war is shared by me--I have an 1873 dated Enfield made Martini Henry-----which I used to shoot (very good bore) The recoil is---well, powerful to say the least--but (because of the black powder propellant), not as 'sharp' as some rifles.

The Zulu's had (just like the red Indians) traded and captured firearms for decades--but the British system of sustained volley's was utterly alien to the African Continent---just as well!

We must chat about it sometime

Dave.

[CThomas]

Graeme, Russ-
Thank you for your input yet again.

Graeme-
It sounds like I wasn't too crazy after all. I thought $140 was a little steep but didn't rule it totally out as I know such out-of-print books usually command a good price. I'll keep my eyes open...


-Chuck

[Jim]

[QUOTE=Lufbery;472535]No wonder it crashed with all that dang shrubbery hanging off of it in inconvenient places. QUOTE]


LOL!

Perhaps it was the new secret model that was built that way at the factory with the shrubbery as camouflage so the Germans wouldn't notice it flying around and that is why the Germans are guarding it so they can learn the secret in how to build camouflaged aircraft.

[bristol scout]

I can most certainly help you guy's out here with shrubberies--visit the Knights who say 'Ni'---they are, of course the keepers of the sacred words ------'NI' 'PENG' and 'NEEE-WOM'

They will advise you on how to get a Shrubbery (probably put you in touch with Roger---Roger the Shrubber)---they got one from him that was 'nice--not too expensive'

No problem, my pleasure!

Dave.

[CThomas]

[quote=Jim;473931]

Originally Posted by Lufbery

No wonder it crashed with all that dang shrubbery hanging off of it in inconvenient places. QUOTE]


LOL!

Perhaps it was the new secret model that was built that way at the factory with the shrubbery as camouflage so the Germans wouldn't notice it flying around and that is why the Germans are guarding it so they can learn the secret in how to build camouflaged aircraft.

How silly of me...I just caught that comment about being a flying shrubbery. Good one
Being this is a British aircraft & being I'm a fan of British humor, I got an especially good laugh out of it. You guys made my night. Thanks!

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Originally Posted by bristol scout

I can most certainly help you guy's out here with shrubberies--visit the Knights who say 'Ni'---they are, of course the keepers of the sacred words ------'NI' 'PENG' and 'NEEE-WOM'

They will advise you on how to get a Shrubbery (probably put you in touch with Roger---Roger the Shrubber)---they got one from him that was 'nice--not too expensive'

No problem, my pleasure!

Dave.

And then, when you have found this shrubbery, you must cut down the mightiest tree in the forest wiiiiiiiith ...... a HERRING!!!!

[R Gannon]

For all the brave Sir Robin's

The loss of Lt HD Tapp on 24 July 17 is another of those interesting ones.

He was on a C Flight patrol which was attacked by EA scouts to east of Polygon at 1930 BT. Last seen under attack by 4 EA Tapp was seen to spiral down under control. Later reported wia & pow. In return both Capt Webb & Lt Gribben claimed Alb scouts as OOC.

Now facinatingly there would appear to be two confirmed German claims this loss! One by Obln v Althaus the SF of Jasta 10 - a Sopwith-1 SE Moorslede at 2035GT #9 and another by Ltn H Goering SF of Jasta 27 - 'Martinsyde' (sic) N Polygon at 2040GT #10. His CR can be seen in the abridge Js 27 KTB in the OTF journal. Goering apparently cornered this EA after two attacks an followed it down from 3200m to 200m noting that it was marked with a 'C' or 'G' on top wing (C6?) We are also informed that Vfw Kraus also had a claim for a 'Martinsyde' same scrap turned down.

Now the weather was poor this date and there were only a limited number of combats with Tapp being the only contender for all three claims. Some sources give Lt Budden wia ftl Bailluel 70 Sqn - but wires badly crossed here as he was ftl following combat on 5 Aug 17.

Again a curly one as he was almost certainly hit in combat with Js 27 and is most often credited as Goering's #11. But in truth was more likely victim of Vfw Kampe of Js 27 who's Sopwith claim was turned down! His claim NW Warneton much closer to Bailluel than Goering claim E Ypern. Indeed I suspect Goering made ineffective attack on Capt Collett and was driven off by Lt Crang. One has to wonder if rank have its privilages on this one!

Again these examples again pour water on the contemporary dogmatic claim that German claims were all hard kills. This is just more evidence that German claiming was every bit as falible as the British claiming.

Bristol

Yes mate love the Zulu War - like many I was totally taken by the film 'Zulu' as a kid. And whilst well aware of its historical liberties, I can still watch it all these years later.

'Answer Sir - officer on parade!'

But let's not go to Camelot - because it is a silly place!

Cheers Russ

[Breguet]

Originally Posted by RussGannon

But let's not go to Camelot - because it is a silly place!

Let's keep this on the topic of aviation please - now, did someone say Parrot sketch???

[Graeme]

Russ

I have it that Tapp was attacked by the dreaded three-headed knight, the fiercest pilot for yards around !

On a serious note, von Althaus' claim at south-east of Moorslede takes the combat further away from Polygon Wood (Moorslede being a little over 4 miles north-east of Polygon Wood), so I think you're right that it was one of Jasta 27's pilots who brought Tapp down.

Graeme

[R Gannon]

Graeme - my holy hand grenade of Antioch.

I'd say Tapp was originally wounded by v Althaus 2035 GT and then driven down by Goering. It could be that Goering was pilot of one of the OOC claims and after 'going downstairs' found himself near Tapp's plane which was probably trying to make ground towards west. Camel making landfall N Polygon at 2040GT. Its all pretty close and well within my perameters of an airfight. Also visibilty was very poor so too V A's eyesight!

Also of interest is the loss same evening of FSL TC May mia/kia of 10 Naval! Wings of his Sop Tripe folded when diving on an EA a little earlier at 1915BT and over Moorslede.

Now he was clearly credited to Ltn Dilthey of Jasta 27 as his first vic - 'Driedekker' S Passchendaele 2015GT - good match if there ever was one. But apparently May's fellow pilots were certain he was not shot down by any EA! The plot thickens when you look at the Js 27 KTB - Dilthey is not listed as flying on the evening sortie, neither is there any mention of any claim by him in accompanying blurb - just claims by Goering & Kraus!!!!!

Now I could list at least 10 other like incidents where British planes have broken up diving on EA. One close at hand is loss of 56 Sqn's Capt Prothero on 26 Jul 17 - right wings of his SE5 fell off when diving over vertical onto a formation of EA. My suspicion is that these planes suffered structural damage when flying through the gauntlet of Flak which all OP's & bombing missions had to weather. Damage which saw wings fold / fall off when planes put into high speed dives. None the less the German authorities were never backwards in awarding these unfortunate fold ups to the pilots & crews of EA under attack! 6 Naval Nieuport awarded to Voss on 6 Jun 17 another such example!

What do you think?

Must push off as there is a rather nasty looking white rabbit snarling at me.

Cheers Russ

He's buggered off!