Breguet's Aircraft ID Challenge #648

Aquilius · 9 November 2009, 04:01 PM

Unfortunately Marek, the online archieve of the ETHZ is not of big help here.

But I must tell you that I mixed up some facts here.
Our doctor was not from Lucerne but from Zürich.
So no arguments against Britschgi & Waldis.

Apologies for that.

In this case it makes sense that the picture is held in the Zürich archieves.

But I have another picture of that plane:

(it is from a book where it is left without caption too

)

The aircraft is shown here in an earlier stage, as was built initially.

To sum up the hints:

• the aircraft was designed by a medical doctor from Zürich
• it was built in 1913 in a (well) known aircraft factory, not in Switzerland
• but was flown in Switzerland, proven at least through 1914
• it was flown private, though the swiss army did test it but not buy it
&
• maybe a search into the origins of that design concept might be helpful

Good luck!

Aquilius

Rbailey · 9 November 2009, 05:56 PM

The nose cone looks like the Noggerath Dieterle eindecker. Dieterle was Swiss.
According to Lange, it was flown by Anton Baierlien in January 1913. "Dehan" was on the rudder in Zurich - would have been easy if I had read Lange carefully earlier, but the second version is certainly different looking.

Varese2002 · 9 November 2009, 10:06 PM

Hm... rather surprising endplay. The machine was built by Otto Flugmaschinen-Werke in München.

Kees

richard B · 10 November 2009, 12:03 AM

A third picture p 29 of Lange's book.
More about Dr.Ing. Jacob Emil Noeggerath (Nöggerath ?),from the first Lange's book :

He had in 19011/12 the HUNGARIAN " DEHAN "

monoplane designed ,wich was flown at München-Oberwiesenfeld.

Known later for his patents DRP 525387(1931) ,DRP 552138(1932) , and a tilt-wing patent in 1925.

Aquilius · 10 November 2009, 07:23 AM

I am also a little surprised that took so long to find it.

But I thought this second pic would ring the bell.

There is another short passage about it in the Etrich book by Hanuš Salz.

Dr. med. Theodor Dieterle let built this monoplane in the Otto works in Munich in 1913. He was supported by J.E. Noeggerath (not Nöggerath) who corresponds with Etrich since 1911 and was probably involved in the design too.
It had an unusual longitudinal stabilisation system with a sort of tank? at the front that later was removed.

Hanuš Salz named it "Dieterle Schwalbe" or "Taube" only.
I prefer the term "Schwalbe" as the wings are peaked and the tail even it is not splitted but inward curved and not Taube-like.

After this machine was tested with the swiss army, they contacted Etrich as well. Only an order for his machines was not realised.

(The last offered picture appears on the cover of the "Taschenbuch der Luftflotten - Die Flugzeuge 1914", below a Blériot monoplane.
It is not told what it is and it might be a little out of place here as it never went into the property of an army.)

Finally, two tenth for Kees, who mentiones the Otto Werke,
the remaining part for Ron, who gets the next challenge.

The scoreboard after challenge #648 - (Noeggerath-) Dieterle Schwalbe :

119.20 Varese2002 ¤
86.20 Dave_Kent ¤
74.80 Rbailey ¤
33.30 Cruze¤
20.70 Aquilius
19.65 Froggy
18.70 YavorD
18.20 richard B
15.90 Flamingo
15.70 Lodzermensch
13.80 Rod Filan
09.50 matte_kudasai
08.70 Breguet
08.70 Dan-San
08.40 JohnMacG
07.70 EdStevens
07.60 trp81
07.30 Patrick
07.10 Colin A. Owers
06.70 Berman
06.70 Ampovandak
06.10 joegertler
06.00 Eric Goedkoop
05.90 Doc
05.70 FOKKERJ Feuchtwanger
05.70 AROTH
05.60 ercoupepilot
05.45 GregE
05.30 Crimso
05.30 Der Grüne Flieger
05.20 Gilles
05.10 bshatzer
05.00 Tom L..........................have to wait 12 hours

04.70 dpolglaze........................ may start immediately
04.40 Ross Moorhouse
04.30 edmondthieffry
04.20 Rufe
04.00 greenknight
03.00 Brad
03.00 sobrien
02.50 Gregoire
02.50 Rexee
02.10 Crankcase
02.00 austin08
02.00 Rickenbaron
01.70 Kilian
01.60 sergio_vitalio
01.50 Albatros_Ace
01.30 Cigogne
01.20 Ransom E. Olds
01.00 airplane176
01.00 Catfish
01.00 Cliff
01.00 cubsfan4life
01.00 gregorydquist
01.00 Luf-Rick
01.00 Mike Westorp
01.00 paolomiana
01.00 Peter Zambori
01.00 rammjaeger
01.00 SL DIII
01.00 Tripehound
00.90 Stig Jarlevik
00.80 Machinbird
00.80 Mad Mac
00.80 tbstreet
00.80 toxisch
00.60 Sreiko
00.50 ’14-‘18aviationcollector
00.50 Martin Irvine
00.40 Vilkata
00.30 albapfalzd30
00.30 Miroslav Pokorny
00.30 Nieuport14
00.20 Paul_J._Fisher

Thanks for playing!

Aquilius

Rbailey · 10 November 2009, 08:21 AM

DeVries also refers to it as the Deiterle taube, but dates it to 1911 - no picture, just a drawing with an in-line engine. According to him, the "thing" out front was the fuel tank.

Aquilius · 10 November 2009, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rbailey

DeVries also refers to it as the Deiterle taube, but dates it to 1911 - no picture, just a drawing with an in-line engine. According to him, the "thing" out front was the fuel tank.

Would be interesting from which source he made the drawing from.

I don't think the container at the front was a fuel tank. How should it have supplied the engine? Through tubes along the undercarriage or inside the wings?

Cheers

Aquilius

Rbailey · 10 November 2009, 09:55 AM

Aquilius - I will check, but I don't think DeVries gives sources for his drawings of several taubes. He may get the general appearance right, but details may be another matter. He may have given this machine an in-line engine because that is what most taubes had. As for the tank out front - I agree it seems wierd for a fuel tank, but then it seems wierd period. Does anyone have any other ideas about it?

berman · 10 November 2009, 10:51 AM

Could the tank out front be for water ballast for the initial testing? This way the engineers could easily change the center of gravity by adding water. After determining the correct amount of weight to add, this ballast tank was removed as shown in the later photograph. The added solid weight would have to be slightly heavier than the tank because it was closer to the CG Just a guess.
A fuel or oil tank is possible but the CG would be constantly shifting as the liquid was consumed.
Would love to see a three view drawing of this flying machine.

Rbailey · 10 November 2009, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquilius

Would be interesting from which source he made the drawing from.

Aquilius

DeVries states that all of the drawings in his book are based on faded and non-reproducible photographs or authenticated drawings. Take that for whatever you like concerning the in-line engine. The picture in Lange also shows a rotary (Gnome).