Fokker A.III A16/15

[Hans]

Meanwhile I took a closer look to the pictures in GVW's Osprey Book. The number below the cockpit- could it be read as "216" ?
Please note also the black filler cap.

Greg...? Any advice?

H

[Raineranton]

Hallo Hans,

I have this picture also in my collection. Maybe these scans help a little bit.
Sorry, I can´t make it bigger.

Grüße

Rainer

[Hans]

Danke Rainer! Soweit ich das erkenne auf dem zweiten Scan, ist das schon die "216". Hilft wirklich! Dann dürfte die A 16/15 wirklich die WerkNr 216 sein. Auch die linke Seite ist dann klar, wenn man der Aufnahme im "Fokker Flugzeugwerke" folgt! Klasse!


As I see it on the second scan, I guess it is "216". Then A 16/15 really seems to be WerkNr 216. Also the left side is clear now, if you follow the picture in "Fokker Flugzeugwerke". Great!

H.

[Hans]

I am nearing the end of my project. At last one question remains: As this aircraft was a converted A-type, the former wing cut-outs were faired over, a feature which can be seen on later E.I-types also. But which materials where used for this additional fairing. On Parschau's machine there some lighter material visible (aluminium?) and some darker material (plywood?). On the other sample it looks like linen and aluminium. Any help..?

H.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Gentlemen:
In the study that I had conducted in 1986, I found the M5L and M5k were delivered with the small cowling side vents. When the M5k was converted in April 1915, to the M5k/MG, the ammunition and empty belt containers were installed outside of the fuselage frame. The side panels on both side panels on both sides of the fuselage were lengthened to accomodate these containers.
These cowlings continued through out the E.I, and early E.II production from at least E.I/15, w.n. 216 to at least E.II 34/15, w.n. 281.
With Serial number E.II 35/15, w.n.282, the left side panel reverted to the smaller vent on the fuselage. The empty belt container was moved to inside the fuselage. Although, I am not certain the right lengthened side panel with the external amunition container, continued to at least Fok.E.III 121/15, w.n.372, and probably through E.127/12, w.n.378.
I think the new small right small side panel commenced with Fok.E.III400/15, w.n.382.
The wing span of th M5k/MG, w.n.216, was 8530mm, the length was 6750mm and the height was 2400mm.
Commencing with M5k/MG, E.I 11/15 the wing span was increased to 8950mm with two bay rigging for the wings.
Fok.M14, E.II 2/15 the wing span was reduced to 8520mm, 14 sq. meters. The overal length was increased to 7200mm and the height was 2400mm. the engine was the 80 Ps Gnome U.0 which powered the M5k/MG and Fok.E.I.
With Fok.E.II 20/15, w.n.267, the 100 Ps Gnome U.I replaced the Gnome U.0.
With Fok.M14, E.II, w.n.317 the span was increased to 9520mm. This is the same wing used on the prototype E.III 54/15, w.n.301, Type M14.
Commencing with Fok.E.III 400/15, w.n. 382, type M14, the wing span was increased to 10,000mm. This was the span on all subsequent Fok.E.III aircraft. Length and height remained same as the E.II M14.
Happy New Year Gentlemen,
Dan-San

[Hans]

Thank you, Dan-San for these informations!

My acute problems now are the wing roots, the former openings there had been faired over. Could it be that area a is made from aluminium? And b from plywood? The pictures from Parschau's WkNr 216 shows area b very dark, but the other picture shows b as if it is from linen...?

Thank you!

H.

[josef scott]

Hans,

I can't give you a definitive answer, but I believe you are correct in your assumptions.

"a" appears to be aluminum. Some of the converted E.I's have more conventional-looking, narrow rectangular pieces in place of these triangular-ish plates (see photos 41 & 42 of E 8/15 in WSDF 91). The more familiar long rectangular plates which span both spars would show up on the production E.I's.

The "b" area is more confusing. I would be inclined to think the opening was faired-over with plywood, but it may or may not have been covered with fabric as well. Some photos, such as the picture of w/n 194 which you've posted, look homogenous with the rest of the wing. On many others, the area looks quite distinct. This is particularly noticeable on the E.I's with the small, narrow rectangular plates. Again in WSDF 91, photo 41 shows a glossy appearance compared to the flat of the rest of the wing. In photos 48 and 49 (of E.11/15 and E.13/15) the ex-opening is obviously delineated from the surrounding covering. So, really, you could go with ply or fabric and no-one could say you are wrong.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hello Hans:
The triangles are aluminum thread plates, I think diamond embossed.
The area b is reinforced under the plywood cover, It is used in the process of entering the cockpit. The under side of the wing root is covered with fabric. It is a very difficult at least for me to get in and out of the cockpit. My Avatar is me sitting in the cockpit of Javier Arango's Fok.E.III 105/15.
Happy New Year Hans,
Dan-San

[Hans]

Thank you both, it's a great help!

Hans

[josef scott]

Happy New Year Dan-San,

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

These cowlings continued through out the E.I, and early E.II production from at least E.I/15, w.n. 216 to at least E.II 34/15, w.n. 281.
Dan-San

First, are you stating E.I/15 is the same aircraft (w/n 216) as Parschau's A.III 16/15?

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

With Serial number E.II 35/15, w.n.282, the left side panel reverted to the smaller vent on the fuselage. The empty belt container was moved to inside the fuselage. Although, I am not certain the right lengthened side panel with the external amunition container, continued to at least Fok.E.III 121/15, w.n.372, and probably through E.127/12, w.n.378.
Dan-San

Only Parabellum-armed E.I's had the belt containers on the port exterior of the aircraft. All Spandau-armed Eindeckers had the used belts directed to internally-mounted containers, even Boelcke's E 3/15.

According to Peter Grosz's production tables, 127/15 was an early E.IV.

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

I think the new small right small side panel commenced with Fok.E.III400/15, w.n.382.
Dan-San

I very much like to find out when the starboard ammunition containers did finally migrate to the interior. Certainly they were there by 400/15 as you stated.

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

The wing span of th M5k/MG, w.n.216, was 8530mm, the length was 6750mm and the height was 2400mm.
Dan-San

Not going there right now.

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Commencing with M5k/MG, E.I 11/15 the wing span was increased to 8950mm with two bay rigging for the wings.
Dan-San

You're not suggesting that previous E.I's had more than 2 bays, are you?

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Fok.M14, E.II 2/15 the wing span was reduced to 8520mm, 14 sq. meters. The overal length was increased to 7200mm and the height was 2400mm. the engine was the 80 Ps Gnome U.0 which powered the M5k/MG and Fok.E.I.
With Fok.E.II 20/15, w.n.267, the 100 Ps Gnome U.I replaced the Gnome U.0.
With Fok.M14, E.II, w.n.317 the span was increased to 9520mm. This is the same wing used on the prototype E.III 54/15, w.n.301, Type M14.
Dan-San

I'm guessing you meant E.II 20/15? I have no positive data on 2/15, but I'm pretty sure it was an E.I. Do you recall your source for 20/15 (or any M14) having a U.O engine? Or for your info on E.II w/n 317?

E.54/15 was an E.I. Photo 75 in WSDF 91 clearly shows this aircraft as an M5 frame with a U.O engine.

Again, I'll leave the dimensional discussions for another time.

Wish we could see more of that E.III in your avatar, Dan-San.