Breguet's ID challenge #655

Lodzermensch · 21 November 2009, 02:31 AM

Hello John,

You are right.

Let me quote an excerption from Ray Sanger’s book on Nieuport aircrafts – page 34:

Quote:

Some Nieuport 12s were built by Beardmore for the RNAS, and these differed from the Nieuport-built machines in certain respect: the lower wings were of slightly greater span...

So the conclusion is: the aircraft of the Challenge (in German markings) was Nieuport-built, while the aircraft shown in my post (in British markings) was built by Beardmore.

In case of Nieuport’s early designs it was almost a rule that individual copies of the same type differed.

Regards

Marek

FOKKERJ · 21 November 2009, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McKenzie

Hello ..Look again at the photos of the two aircraft close together ...I would say that the lower one ( in British markings ) ..has for its lower wings , a slightly longer ( by one rib bay ) overhang , outboard of the interplane strut attachment point than the machine in German markings ....
What do you all see here ? JM

Hi John and Marek,

Ya, I saw that. The German marked machine has the shorter wing span on the lower wing. I was waiting for the answer of the difference between the two fotos, then I realised that Marek had posted another Nieuport 12 (not a Nieuport 10 (?)) and forgot all about it.

How come the Beardmore built machine doesn't have a fixed fin/rudder combo?
Was this an option/modification?

HAPPY TRAILS, FOKKERJ

Lodzermensch · 21 November 2009, 03:52 AM

Hi Jay,

Quote:

How come the Beardmore built machine doesn't have a fixed fin/rudder combo?
Was this an option/modification?

I feel like under cross-examination

Another quotation from Ray Sanger's book, dealing with Beardmore-built Nieuport 12 gives the answer:

Quote:

Later still, a fin with a curved leading edge was added.

That was one of few modifications.

Regards

Marek

John McKenzie · 21 November 2009, 03:53 AM

Hi Jay and Marek , Thanks for the information on the rules .
Both machines shown , have no fixed fin ..Just the ballanced rudder .Its Just the angle of the photo ..
Cheers John

Sorry Jay ..Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying , perhaps yours was a reference to the book rather than to the photos shown .?

Marek ...You are " Spot on " regard to the UK government and legislation !

FOKKERJ · 21 November 2009, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McKenzie

Hi Jay and Marek , Thanks for the information on the rules .
Both machines shown , have no fixed fin ..Just the ballanced rudder .Its Just the angle of the photo ..
Cheers John

Sorry Jay ..Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying , perhaps yours was a reference to the book rather than to the photos shown .?

Marek ...You are " Spot on " regard to the UK government and legislation !

I knew that.

It's just.... zzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZ

FOKKERJ · 21 November 2009, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodzermensch

Hi Jay,

I feel like under cross-examination

Another quotation from Ray Sanger's book, dealing with Beardmore-built Nieuport 12 gives the answer:

That was one of few modifications.

Regards

Marek

Thank you for the research.
I'm just trying to get my money's worth on my edjumakation here.

Cheers, Jay

Lodzermensch · 21 November 2009, 04:33 AM

John,

I owe you some explanation before someone will get the hump.

Quote:

Marek ...You are " Spot on " regard to the UK government and legislation !

It was not my intention to judge the British government or law. I just wanted to point out that "Breguet’s Law" is like Common Law which was based on precedents (at least in the past) in opposition to Continental system of Law I am familiar with, which has always been based on Acts established by parliament.

Cheers

Marek

John McKenzie · 21 November 2009, 05:28 AM

Hi Marek...None of the "people of GB" will be offended in any way at all ....The only people who are likely to " get the hump " are the PM ( Gorgon Brown ) and all the crooked MP's etc.....who are swindling the tax payer with their bogus expences claims !.....Most of the country thinks that it is about time that "They " actually " Were " brought to justice and "Judged " !

You are posting some wonderfull photos on this thread ....Well done

Cheers John

Aquilius · 1 December 2009, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richard B

My source was William Green's book about fighters of the world .
In fact ,I didn't read it carefully enough

For Green , Ni 10 was at first two seater and later single seater.
The outward rake of the interplane struts is well illustrated in the 3-views .

Richard

Hi Richard, I don't know what Green has written.

There is this russian website that states the Ni 12 to be a single or two-seater. I think at least the picture is mistaken. Nieuport N.12

But Green might be referring to the plane used by Anselm Marchal with wich he was 'bombing' Berlin by dropping a few leaflets. This was a Ni 10 converted to a single-seater in favor of a bigger fuel tank.
The story was covered here at the drome a little earlier:
Breguet's Aircraft Challenge # 134

Cheers

Aquilius

richard B · 1 December 2009, 04:23 AM

Hello

My Green's reference was about the Nie 10 (not the Nie 12 ).
(My Green's book is in french) : He tells ,Nie 10 was a scout with the observer fore (Nie 10 AV ) or aft (Nie 10 AR ) for "avant" et "arrière".
Much of them were later converted as single seaters with a single gun .

Cheers

Richard