Siemens-Schuckert D. III/IV in Switzerland

[Peter_T1958]

Until better scans will arrive, I'm passing the time by studying all posts concerning the camo scheme of those “Swiss-SSW’s”. Now I stumbled upon the following post:

Two time periods
A. When the SSW D.III was originally issued in early 1918 to Jasta 12, 13, 15 and 19, they were covered with the light pattern on top surfaces of the wings, elevator, rudder, wheel covers, cabane and interplane struts. The under surfaces of the wings and elevator were covered with plain unprinted fabric and plain tapes.

B. When the SSW D.III were reissued in August 1918, they were rebuilt and re-engined. The upper surfaces of the wings and elevator, rudder, wheel covers, cabane and interplane struts were covered with intermediate dark pattern printed fabric with matching taping. The under surfaces of the wings and elevator were covered with the light pattern with matching taping.

This discussion started with Ltn. Walter Gottsch's SSW D.III 8346/17, which was in the early SSW D.III configuration A above.
Dan San Abbot

As far as I know, at least Egers D.III (8344/17) was pre-production batch and had been modified before been delivered to Kest 5. This leads to the conclusion that here we have configuration B (intermediate dark pattern printed fabric on upper sides/ light pattern on under surfaces). But in one picture there is clearly plain unprinted fabric on the underside.

Only Dembrowsky’s D.III (1618/18) is described as a production badge machine and should therefore have the light pattern on the under surfaces. The picture taken in Schaffhausen don’t fit that theory: plain unprinted fabric …

As a newcomer, I am totally confused. Which hue shall I put on the upper sides, lower or upper 5 tone? Who can help me?

Peter

[SDK]

I think the photo in post #6 of this thread shows light and dark patches under the wing. To me it looks like diagonally applied lozenge fabric. I converted the image to true greyscale which seems to bring it out better:

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Gentlemen:
A simple means of identifying early and late production SSW D.III aircraft is:
1. Early SSW D.III had a full circular engine cowling.
2. Later modified production SSW D.III aircraft had the bottom half of the engine cowling removed to aid in cooling the engine.
3. The rudder was changed from a square rudder to the bottom rear cutoff.
Merry Christmas Gentlemen,
Dan-San

[Peter_T1958]

Today Christmas holidays have started () and I jumped at the chance to visit the Staatsarchive in Schaffhausen again, armed with a huge magnifying glass. As the scans are still not done (they are promised for next week ) I wanted to examine the originals closely.

SSW D.III / 1618/18
This is definitely Dembrowsky’s machine. Close examination shows Lozenge pattern barely visible on the underside. What was surprising, on the fuselage two tones are visible: The black colour ended shortly behind the trailing edge (s. sketch). The rear half of the fuselage seems to have that often described piano finish - with the exception of the background (red arrow) of that elaborate Monogram, which also seems to be black!



SSW D.III / 8344/17
I am sure now that all those pictures of the Totenkopf marked aircraft are from the same machine: The SSW D.III from Arnold Eger. The pictures show clear views of both sides.

Therefore the question remains: What’s about Bruno Lange’s machine?

Hope you understand my basic English!

All the best, Peter

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hi Peter:
SSW D.III 1618/18 has the last variation to the Cross, This cross form went into affect on 4 June 1918. The photo shows the undersides of the wings and tailplane with the five color light pattern. The is a Category B finish with the dark five color intermediate pattern on the top surfaces of the wings and tailplane. It was issued to Kest 5 at Lahr-Dinglingen on3 August 1918.
SSW 8344/17 was issued to Kest 5 on 10 August 1918 and was finished in the Category B finish.
Merry Christmas Peter,
Dan-San

[Peter_T1958]

SSW D.III; 1618/18; Vzfw. Dembrowsky
Thanks a lot Dan-San. You helped me a lot. That matches exact what I can see on the photograph. Just one thought: If the black colour ends shortly behind the trailing edge, as it seems in the picture, the Balkenkreuz should be visible on the rear half of the fuselage. But there is no Balkenkreuz! Am I wrong with the shellacked fuselage?

SSW D.III; 8344/17; Arnold Eger
I have studied the pattern again and again. For me as a layman it is impossible to verify the different Lozenge pattern but I can see rather dark hues. Thanks again for your clarification!

Merry Christmas Dan-San, Peter

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hi Peter:
A coupleof things here.
1. To check the pattern, enlarge the photo. The lower wing and elevator repeat spanwise.
2. You are saying the fuselage forward of the trailing edge of the lower wing is black. I don't see it at all. The high light on the fuselage is exacly the same tone. It appears to me as varnished plywood. I could be mistaken.
Merry Christmas Peter,
Dan-San

[Peter_T1958]

Hello

This copy I got from the Staatsarchive-staff. Of course no alternative for the scans, but better than nothing.



Lozenge
The lower wing is littered with a line of dark blotches, but these are not in correlation with the Lozenge pattern. The pattern itself is hardly visible even on the original photograph, but it is there! Dan-San is right with his information. May be the colours bleached out - rather unlikely in my opinion - or it is a problem of the film material used at that time…!

Fuselage
If I can see it right, the dark colour (black?) ends on the underside about two feet behind the trailing edge. On the side it looks like an extension towards the tail just behind the monogram. This is a vague interpretation of what I can see and as I wrote already this won’t make sense if there are no Balkenkreuze. Balkenkreuze shold be there if there would be varnished plywood, is that right?

May be the experts are able to decide finally due to the already known picture of the same a/c. That's beyond me!



Cheers, Peter

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hi Peter:
I have taken more and have blown this photo 150%. What I found is this.
1. On the fuselage about two feet aft the lower wing trailing is a dark color, (black) horizontal bar, then a white? bar, whose aft end is closed with a medium grey, possible blue fore and dark (black?) aft diagonals lines, possibly the bottom half of a horizontal diamond enclosing a white diamond. It seems, appears to be a band encircling the bottom of the fuselage of narrow black and white bars. The diamond? edged in black? on the side of the fuselage seems to be twice as long as the black? and white? bars.
On the bottom of the tailplane, which appears to be painted pale blue? and includes the rear of the fuselage to where the leading edge curve ends on the rear fuselage.
On the right lower side of the tailplane is a mid grey, maybe blue? diagonal bar about 300mm wide, set it from the leading edge. On the left uder side of the tailplane the blue diagonal bar is in the leading edge part of the set back on the other side. Take a
Is this SSW D.III from KEST 5? What is supposed to be its serial number?
Merry Christmas and Happy Year,
Dan-San

[Peter_T1958]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Is this SSW D.III from KEST 5? What is supposed to be its serial number?
Dan-San

I really appreciate your great help. According to Hans-Heiri Stapfer this SSW D.III is from Kest 5 at Lahr, serial number 1618/18; Heinrich Dembrowsky.

When I started this discussion, I knew nothing about the two D.III’s that landed in Schaffhausen more then 90 years ago, but I wanted to build a model of one of these two planes as accurate as possible. Now, as I slowly get an idea, it is difficult not to become discouraged by the complexity of the problem. It seems, that we have to wait until new pictures are available (heard of one with that plane on a flat car …)

As my last model, the German A7V Tank in 1/25 was a ten years build , I tend to do now Egers D. III number 8344/17 (white skull and crossbones on a black fuselage / dark five color intermediate pattern on the top surfaces; five color light pattern on the undersides). I think this a/c is very well documented with at least 10 photographs.

Greetings from Schaffhausen
Peter