documenting NYC raid

[geo]

Good People:

I am looking for information about a proposal put forward by the German Imperial Navy to bomb NYC using the heigh climber Zeppelins. I have read about this here and on other websites but can't find any links to primary sources; i.e. Official documentation or even good secondary sources like official histories.

Actually, given my German, I would prefer a good secondary source- in English-that clearly states how we know the Germans were actually planning a raid.

Many thanks.

geo
geowalsh@ptd.net

[LeicesterTiger]

Haven't heard of that before - although there was the Mannesman (also known as the Poll) giant triplane bomber which was designed to bomb New York

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hi geo:
I have not seen any information about Zeppelns bommbing New York. The Kreigsmarine Liftschiffe certinly had the capability, this was proven with the German Luftschiff L59 round trip flight to German East Africa. They would have had the capability. Can you imagine the chaos it would had caused.
Merry Christmas geo,
Dan-San

[Catfish]

Hello,
theoretically the L70+ types would have had the capability, with 60 tons of payload (of this there would be appx. 7-10 tons of bombs), but there were few people in the german military staff, who still believed in being able to "win" this war in august, 1918, let alone bomb North America - in fact president Wilson's 14 points were the last hope they had, for a peace treaty.
There is always this "quote" from FdL Strasser with something like "now we have the capability to bomb New York", but there's not much left of it if you look for real evidence, or plans.
The british R34, built after plans of the crashed naval Zepp. L33, did indeed cross the atlantic two times in 1919 (being the first airship ever that accomplished this), but had not much fuel left when approaching the US coast. Anyway it was a daring venture, and the praise for the british crew was well-deserved.
From HistoryNet.com:
" ... R.34 had flown the Atlantic ocean in 108 hours and 12 minutes from its base at East Fortune, near Edinburgh, Scotland. The flight was a landmark in aviation history, though in 1919 it seemed a natural progression in the onward march of aviation. ..."

Greetings, and a merry Christmas,
Catfish

[geo]

Thanks for replying. As noted a notional bombing run on NYC using Zeppelins has been kicked around different websites. This forum had a short lived thread on it back: Dan had the interesting and ingenious idea of putting a Zep base in Mexico.

As a plan it was no less crazy than known plots to kick off mutinies in Ireland and India, or blow up Black Tom's Island in New York harbor. The Germans also have a history of technologically brilliant but military pointless stunts like the super gun that shelled Paris, or the world war II era Gustav cannon or V weapons.

I just can't nail down the documentation that says the Germans saw the possibility as opposed to a scifi plot dreamed up at a later date.

Maybe I been drinking to much cool-aid but let me tell you where I am heading with all this...Air power-Zeppelins-could have proved divisive in World War 1. By 1915 both sides desperatly needed raw materials and food. The Royal Naval blockade and later the neutrality act cut Germany off from the world in general and America in particular while allowing the allies to use American industrial and financial resources for themselves.

This is where the gas bags, with their intercontinental range come in to play, Instead of strategic bombing they should have been used as strategic airlift, running the blockade (actually floating over it), flying the flag in foreign ports, telling Germany's side of the story, (Britain cut Germany's underseas cables in the first days of the war, allowing British propaganda to go unchallenged) enabling intelligence operations and the like the Zeppelin could have maintained limited German access to the wider world.

Mexico would have been the ideal place to focus such operations. Prior to America's formal entrance into the war British agents could subvert the neutrality act by working through Canadian firms, some of which were affiliated with American companies. A Mexican base would have give the Germans roughly the same ability.

After America's entrance into the war was declared between the US and Germany any such base would have been a threat to America forcing, at the least, troops and equipment be diverted from the front. The squids talk about a fleet in being, A zeppelin base would have been the aviation equivalent. Once war

And if you really want to go there, Zeppelins, converted into bombers, operating out of Mexico would have been able to hit every strategic target in North America as well as disrupt convoys headed to Britain.

A final thought, at the level of grand strategy, Germany is often knocked for not having a glue, which is untrue. The krauts were in contact with a major French politician named Joseph Caillaux who was willing to form a "peace now" government, signing an armistice and ordering the exit of the Anglo-american forces.

what Caillaux need was for events at the Front to become dire enough to unseat the government of George Clemenceau. Looked at from this perspective the Spring 1918 offensives make a lot more sense. Had the Germans succeeded in taking out Britain's 5th Army, which would have forced Haig to withdraw to his ports, Clemenceau's government would certainly have been on the chopping block.

Had the Zeppelins given German's a bit more material, forced the Americans to divide their efforts between France and Mexico, and denied the convoys their success perhaps the spring offensives might have been a marginal success, giving Caillaux his opportunity to end the war on German terms. (This last point is not a given, clemmenceau could have had his world collapse and still had Caillaux and his followers for lunch.) If this had happened in the form of airlift the decisive factor in the war.

[geo]

double posted by accident. Sorry

[geo]

Originally Posted by Catfish

There is always this "quote" from FdL Strasser with something like "now we have the capability to bomb New York",

"Quote", "Strasser", he asked sniffing the air, can you tell me where I can find this..Please

[Catfish]

Hello Geo, and welcome to the aerodrome ,

well it's an interesting what-if .. surely our ancestors had a notion for megalomanic and at the same time militarily pointless machinery
(but at least those giant railway guns were also produced and utilized by the french ).

The airships ..
As a means for breaking the blockade, like it was done with the trade U-boat "Deutschland", it would have been perfect, but their had to be some material, bases and infrastructure at the american continent. And then even with a payload of 60 tons like in the late war airships, most of this load would have consisted of ballast (vital!), and fuel, and then there would have been a maximum of 20 tons of real cargo - and this is already a bit too much, say 7-12 tons would be more believable.

Then there was a second problem - long voyages with Zeppelins, as the L59 performed, were very complicated in war times. Maybe it is not so easy to explain, but the Zeppelins of WW1 had to climb high to evade being shot down by aircraft, or ground fire.
Throughout the war the Zeppelins were a bit ahead of their adversaries, they were mostly shot down because the commander miscalculated the situation (thinking of no enemies present) and flying lower than it would have been necessary, or they just thought they were already above german ground (those 4 low-flying airships lost over France). This was done because of navigation errors and other problems, and also to find targets at the ground during bombing raids. Naval airships did not carry cloud cars for reconnaissance beneath the clouds, too much unnecessary weight (as well as parachutes ahem).

The after-war airships did not have to deal with high altitudes, they would rise to say 800 meters (appx. 2400 feet) and stay there for the rest of their voyage - so they did not have to drop too much ballast, but also they would not lose precious hydrogen gas that would vent off from the inner gasbags at higher altitudes. Smaller altitude corrections would be made dynamically by lifting or lowering the bow, and the engines.

But let's say a Zepp. in 1915 - 17 would head for the US, it would have first to cross France, or maybe take a more southern course, but still. If it would fly at at least 4000 meters or 12000 feet, it would be well above it's "burst height", meaning the pressure in the gasbags would rise to a point where they would blow off gas via emergency valves, for not ripping up the gas cells.

When going down again over the atlantic (for a bit more warmth, and oxygen), and again venting gas for this purpose they would have to drop ballast further down, because now there's this lack of hydrogen (which was ok at 4000 meters, but now ..), just to maintain a certain altitude at say 1000 meters. Navigation would be a problem, no gyrocompass on war airships (weight), but maybe via a sextant on cloudless days, or nights ...

Then there's the US coast, so up with the airship, drop even more ballast, go to 4000 or more meters and evade the US planes, again unwanted venting of precious gas - and maybe down again for looking for targets, or plain navigation, and the final landing somewhere.
The airship would be by now in dire need of replenishment of fuel, and ballast, let alone repairs and spare parts. Mind you, parts of metal and duraluminium alloys, along with special parts for the High-altitude engines from Maybach, gas cell material (very complicated to produce this "Goldschlaegerhaut"). So the problem would have been the repeated up and down - with maintaining a certain height all the time it would have been much less dangerous.

I guess it would be possible, one way - but then a base on the american continent would have been necessary

Thanks and geetings,
Catfish

[geo]

I agree with your analysis of the Zeppelins limitations, they were bleeding edge technology, prone to odd accidents at odd time. The Africa ship twice suffered a near fatal loss in buoyancy. But the ships could have done the job if directed to do so and the political will to win had been there. Establishing a base in Mexico or elsewhere, in addition to endlessly annoying the Yanks, would have allowed needed maintenance and replenishment before attempting the trip home.

To what end would this have taken Germany? The total volume of good shipped would never have come close to offsetting the blockade due, as you point out, the Zeppelin's useful payload being so small. But the total volume of goods shipped would have increased as the number of operational Zeppelins increased. (I am also assuming, with out evidence, that the loss rate for a Zeppelin based airlift would have been much less than what was suffered in the bombing campaign, allowing a critical mass of ships and personal to accumulate.)

Something, even a little bit of something beats nothing, and after the turnip winter of 1916 – 1917, which saw many average Germans at the brink of starvation, the political and propaganda value of a Zeppelin airlift would have worth it weight in gold.

Of course the Kaiser could have considerable public goodwill by giving up the good life for the duration. Unlike the British Royal Family who made a point of using ration books, the German Royal Family continued a life of privilege. Amidst war time sacristy the Crown Prince even built a new palace for himself. Against such behavior all the airships in the world couldn't generate enough good will, but the attempt would have been magnificent.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hi Catfish:
Had the German Kreigsmarine made a raid on the USA, it would have come as a total surprise. There was no air raid warning system established. By the time they got guns on a couple of Jennys or D.H.4s, the raiders would have dropped their bombs, cruised around on a sight seeing trip, flown on to Washington D.C and unloaded the rest of their bombs and would be on their way home by the time the Jennys or D.H. got off the ground. There were no blackouts anywhere in the USA. No air raid warning network of any kind whatsoever. Now a second raid might be a different thing, however we would have not been unable to deter any raid on the USA. We had nothing in the USA in the form of interceptor squadrons or suitable aircraft to deter or prevent an air raid. The Kreigsmarine Luftschiffen would have a free ride on the bus for three to six months, before there was a deterrent of any kind. The wheels of government turn rather slowly, even in times of emergency.
Merry Christmas Catfish,
Dan-San