Snipe Vs Fok D V11 & D V111

Barry Hickson · 8 March 2010, 08:05 PM

G'day All!
I wondered what the concensis was of the relative merits of these 3 Aircraft?

It the Germans had not had the supply problems they suffered in the last 6 months of the War would they have reestablished Air superiority with the later Fokkers or would the Snipe & Spads been good enough to keep the status quo?

Dan_San_Abbott · 9 March 2010, 11:59 AM

Hi Barry
The Snipe was designed for the 320 hp Dragonfly radial engine ,as areplacement for obsolescent Sopwith F.! Camel. When this engine failed to meet the expectations of the RAF, the snipe was reengined with the Bentley
BR2 230 hp engine. The result of this combunation resulted in the Snipe having performance less than the Camel.
The escort version of the 7F1a Snipe had a larger fuel capacity were to escort the

Independent Force Bombers was a real dog, The Fok.D.VII and SSW D.IV of the KEST would of had an easy way with 7F1a Snipes. It was fortunate the war ended in November 1918, The standard Snipe and the Escort Snipe would have had high losses had the war continued into 1919.
The Sopwith F.I Camel with the 150 hp Bentley B.R.1 data:
Empty weight, 977lbs; total weight, 1470 lbs. Max airspeed at 10000 ft. 121 mph, at 15000 ft., 114.5 mph. Service ceiling, 22000 ft.
Wing loading per sq.ft. 1470lbs./231 sq.ft.=6.36 lb.sq.ft.
Power loading. 1470lbs./ 150hp=9.8 lbs per hp.
The Sopwith 7F1 Snipe with the 230 hp Bentley B.R.2 engine.
Empty weight, 1312 lbs.; total weight, 2020 lbs.; Max.Air speed at 10000 ft., 121mph.; at 15000 ft. 113 mph. Service ceiling,19500 ft.
wing loading, 2020 lbs./271 sq.ft.=7.45 lbs.sq.ft.
Power loading, 2020lbs/230hp =8.78 lbs per hp.
The reequipping of the Camel Squadron was to commence in January 1919, however No.43 Squadron, No. 208 Squadron and No.4 Squadron AFC were equipped before the war ended. The equipping of No.45 Squadroin, I.F. had started as the war ended. It would have been a short lived fighter in 1919 and would have needed replacement with a fighter of better performance or solve the problems with the 320 hp?? Dragonfly engine. The Snipe has gotten press totally out of proportion with its 1917 performance.
The S.E.5a and Sopwith 5F1 Dolphin could fly circles around the Snipe and would have been easy meat for the 1918 BMWIIIa Fok,D.VI and the SSW D.IV.
German fighters.
Blue skies Barry,
Dan-San

Dan_San_Abbott · 9 March 2010, 12:11 PM

Hi Barry
The Snipe was designed for the 320 hp Dragonfly radial engine ,as areplacement for obsolescent Sopwith F.! Camel. When this engine failed to meet the expectations of the RAF, the snipe was reengined with the Bentley
BR2 230 hp engine. The result of this combunation resulted in the Snipe having performance less than the Camel.
The escort version of the 7F1a Snipe had a larger fuel capacity were to escort the

Independent Force Bombers was a real dog, The Fok.D.VII and SSW D.IV of the KEST would of had an easy way with 7F1a Snipes. It was fortunate the RAF the war ended in November 1918, The standard Snipe and the Escort Snipe would have had high losses had the war continued into 1919.

The Sopwith F.I Camel with the 150 hp Bentley B.R.1 data:
Empty weight, 977lbs; total weight, 1470 lbs. Max airspeed at 10000 ft. 121 mph, at 15000 ft., 114.5 mph. Service ceiling, 22000 ft.
Wing loading per sq.ft. 1470lbs./231 sq.ft.=6.36 lb.sq.ft.
Power loading. 1470lbs./ 150hp=9.8 lbs per hp.

The Sopwith 7F1 Snipe with the 230 hp Bentley B.R.2 engine.
Empty weight, 1312 lbs.; total weight, 2020 lbs.; Max.Air speed at 10000 ft., 121mph.; at 15000 ft. 113 mph. Service ceiling,19500 ft.
wing loading, 2020 lbs./271 sq.ft.=7.45 lbs.sq.ft.
Power loading, 2020lbs/230hp =8.78 lbs per hp.

The 7F1a Snipe with Bentley 230 hp engine.
Empty weight, 1329 lbs., total weight, 2271 lbs., Max air speed at 10000ft, 114 mph, at 15000 ft. 103 mph., Service ceiling, 15000 ft.
wing loading, 2271 lbs./ 271=8.38 lbs. per sq.ft.
Power loading, 2271 lbs./ 230=9.87 lbs. per hp.

The reequipping of the Camel Squadron was to commence in January 1919, however No.43 Squadron, No. 208 Squadron and No.4 Squadron AFC were equipped before the war ended. The equipping of No.45 Squadroin, I.F. had started as the war ended. It would have been a short lived fighter in 1919 and would have needed replacement with a fighter of better performance or solve the problems with the 320 hp?? Dragonfly engine. The Snipe has gotten press totally out of proportion with its 1917 performance.
The S.E.5a and Sopwith 5F1 Dolphin could fly circles around the Snipe and would have been easy meat for the 1918 BMWIIIa Fok,D.VI and the SSW D.IV.
German fighters.
Blue skies Barry,
Dan-San

Vin · 9 March 2010, 12:21 PM

A topic that's been debated numerous times. The discussions are enlightening. Start with

Sopwith snipe question

There are links to earlier threads there. Good reading all.

Barry Hickson · 9 March 2010, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Hi Barry
The Snipe was designed for the 320 hp Dragonfly radial engine ,as areplacement for obsolescent Sopwith F.! Camel. When this engine failed to meet the expectations of the RAF, the snipe was reengined with the Bentley
BR2 230 hp engine. The result of this combunation resulted in the Snipe having performance less than the Camel.
The escort version of the 7F1a Snipe had a larger fuel capacity were to escort the

Independent Force Bombers was a real dog, The Fok.D.VII and SSW D.IV of the KEST would of had an easy way with 7F1a Snipes. It was fortunate the RAF the war ended in November 1918, The standard Snipe and the Escort Snipe would have had high losses had the war continued into 1919.

The Sopwith F.I Camel with the 150 hp Bentley B.R.1 data:
Empty weight, 977lbs; total weight, 1470 lbs. Max airspeed at 10000 ft. 121 mph, at 15000 ft., 114.5 mph. Service ceiling, 22000 ft.
Wing loading per sq.ft. 1470lbs./231 sq.ft.=6.36 lb.sq.ft.
Power loading. 1470lbs./ 150hp=9.8 lbs per hp.

The Sopwith 7F1 Snipe with the 230 hp Bentley B.R.2 engine.
Empty weight, 1312 lbs.; total weight, 2020 lbs.; Max.Air speed at 10000 ft., 121mph.; at 15000 ft. 113 mph. Service ceiling,19500 ft.
wing loading, 2020 lbs./271 sq.ft.=7.45 lbs.sq.ft.
Power loading, 2020lbs/230hp =8.78 lbs per hp.

The 7F1a Snipe with Bentley 230 hp engine.
Empty weight, 1329 lbs., total weight, 2271 lbs., Max air speed at 10000ft, 114 mph, at 15000 ft. 103 mph., Service ceiling, 15000 ft.
wing loading, 2271 lbs./ 271=8.38 lbs. per sq.ft.
Power loading, 2271 lbs./ 230=9.87 lbs. per hp.

The reequipping of the Camel Squadron was to commence in January 1919, however No.43 Squadron, No. 208 Squadron and No.4 Squadron AFC were equipped before the war ended. The equipping of No.45 Squadroin, I.F. had started as the war ended. It would have been a short lived fighter in 1919 and would have needed replacement with a fighter of better performance or solve the problems with the 320 hp?? Dragonfly engine. The Snipe has gotten press totally out of proportion with its 1917 performance.
The S.E.5a and Sopwith 5F1 Dolphin could fly circles around the Snipe and would have been easy meat for the 1918 BMWIIIa Fok,D.VI and the SSW D.IV.
German fighters.
Blue skies Barry,
Dan-San

Thanks Dan-San! As usual you have all the info to resolve queries.
It was dissapointing to learn the Snipe was actually a Dog!

Dan_San_Abbott · 9 March 2010, 05:20 PM

Hi Barry:
What I have never under stood why the RAF continued to use the Snipe after the war. The Martinsyde F.4 was a superior aircraft with 1919 performance instead of the Snipe with 1917 performance. To my knowledge, nothing was every done to resurrect the 320 Dragonfly engine. The RAF had to wait until
1923 for the Gloster Grebe fighter to get fighter with the right kind of performance. The Nieuport Nighthawk was a better aeroplane than the Snipe even with the B.R.2 rotary. It was used to a limited extent and was the predecessor to the Gloster Grebe. Both were designed by Harry P. Folland, who also designed the S.E.5, S.E.5a.
Blue skies Barry,
Dan-San

Vin · 9 March 2010, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Hickson

....the Snipe was actually a Dog!

That's not the view of the 4AFC pilots.

Barry Hickson · 10 March 2010, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Hi Barry:
What I have never under stood why the RAF continued to use the Snipe after the war. The Martinsyde F.4 was a superior aircraft with 1919 performance instead of the Snipe with 1917 performance. To my knowledge, nothing was every done to resurrect the 320 Dragonfly engine. The RAF had to wait until
1923 for the Gloster Grebe fighter to get fighter with the right kind of performance. The Nieuport Nighthawk was a better aeroplane than the Snipe even with the B.R.2 rotary. It was used to a limited extent and was the predecessor to the Gloster Grebe. Both were designed by Harry P. Folland, who also designed the S.E.5, S.E.5a.
Blue skies Barry,
Dan-San

Sounds like some typically bureaucratic "head in sand" attitude Dan-San.

I always thought the SE5 & 5a were very well designed aircraft & very robust.
I must find out more about Mr Folland I think he might have been better than Mr Fokker!