unknown crashed aircraft ...

Franz · 6 August 2010, 04:42 AM

Hi,

i have a little problem to identify a crashed aircraft which was destroyed June 16th 1916. The pilot was Max Wagner, he took of from Leipzig that day and crashed later on at Oberhermersdorf, probably due to an engine failure, killing both - himself and his passenger. Even more tragic was the fact, that he was performing a kind of remembering flight overhead the grave of his mother who died two years ago.
I checked my sources, but i am not really sure which type he was flying that day, maybe an Albatros CIII ? Would be great if somebody out there could identify this plane !

Cheers

Thomas

Flamingo · 6 August 2010, 05:07 AM

Hi Franz

the aileron shape with two different incidence angles clearly make it an LVG.

The central cut out in the upper wing excludes the B.I, so it can be a B.II or C.II and less likely a C.I. I fear that is as close as we can get.

These pictures would have made a great crash file challenge!

Franz · 6 August 2010, 06:42 AM

Hi Joachim,

second try for an answer, my first one was blocked due to a link to my website .....

You are right, i also remarked the central cut at the upper wing and tried to put it together with the empannage giving a real choice for an identification ..... but i failed !

An LVG BII get's more and more into my focus, especially after checking the aileron of the crash and a photo of mine taken at the Krakow museum ( see below, this time a BI with BII wings !) .... nevertheless, i still couldn't really found the correct shape for the stabilizer, the one from the crash has a more round shape, but the BII should have something more ' straight '. Also irgendwie gerade nicht rund ...

But who know's, maybe there are different shapes of tails and empennages that were used those days, sometimes funny how different aircraft of the same type could look !

Thank you very much, you helped me a lot !

Thomas

Thank you very much,

Flamingo · 6 August 2010, 10:32 AM

Hi Thomas

First I want to say that your website is one of my top favourites! What a great collection of photographs.

Now back to the crash

Well, the tailplane looks a bit like an Aviatik, but this could be because of perspective....or non standard replacement on a training ship.

Many years ago I bought a book about the Krakow collection, Phönix aus der Asche by Hundertwasser und Steinle, the guy from the Berlin museum.

This book described all the machines and said:

There is an LVG B.I (System Schneider) 1912*, but strangely the wings are from the later B.II.

Well, the fuselage is a B.II!

The B.I had a forward fuselage in metal, not wood, the demacation to the fabric was at an angle and not (almost) vertical and the rear cockpit was forward of the rear cabane struts and not behind them. The cabane of the B.I was considerably larger and had a characteristic drop shaped gravity tank.
In 2008 you had a nice picture (LVG-B-2.jpg) on your site of a B.I clearly showing all these features, now gone but still on my HD!

So in the museum they got a B.II fuselage and B.II wings! Maybe they believe Mr Steinle and don't dare to put them together?

*According to Peter Grosz, Datafile 98, the maiden flight took place 8th march 1913!

Franz · 7 August 2010, 12:31 AM

Hi Joachim,

thank's for your additional information, funny enough, i also bought this book and got my knowledge about this ' B I ' from there, looks like that's the way errors developing !
Attached one more photo of Max Wagner in 'his' plane, definitely not the same plane like the one that crashed - look f.e. to the central cut at the upper wing. Should be an LVG B I in my opinion, but who know's .....

Also thank's to your positive feedback for my website, i will change the LVG B I to a B II soon

Cheers

Thomas

Franz · 7 August 2010, 09:51 AM

Hi again Joachim,

just one more thing ...... every source (book) i have seen, say, that the LVG B I and B II covered their wooden made cockpit construction with aluminum sheets - which would mean, that the basic construction of both variants were made of wood, the sheets you can see are an addition and could not be used for a final identification, so maybe, the wooden cockpit area of the Krakow Museum example could not be used as a prove for a B II, maybe the metal is gone for some reasons and only the wood stay - what do you think about this ?

Cheers

Thomas