Greek Sopwith Wreckage requires Identification

[paulmcmillan]

Another Photo

I am hoping for some more..

They are going to the site again to clear out the foliage from the Engine Mount

[paulmcmillan]

All

Update. Dr Lagos does not think it is Greek one, he thinks ir RNAS/RAF aircraft. Thassos closed in 1919

Also, he has heard from locals that the engine was recovered around 70 years ago and fuel tank 30 years ago

So it may be that we have a crash here. Does anyone have 222 Sqn or RNAS Camel losses for this area ? Just a hope!

Paul

[RLWP]

Hi Paul,

just to say I'm going to follow and contribute to this subject here. IT seems more constructive at the moment

Richard

[John McKenzie]

Regarding this Crashed SOPWITH CAMEL Aircraft .

The machine was 1st Identified as a Sopwith & not a Nieuport by Powerfix .
Just as soon as larger photos were supplied , he was then able to identify it as a Camel .
Most of the talk following from others is the blind leading the blind and going nowhere !

-----------------------------------------------

Regarding the 5 posted photos in post #1 on This Aerodrome Thread .. I will confirm the ID of these parts ....


Photo #1.....
Visible is the UPPER PORTION of a CAMEL TAILPOST , complete with the remains of a bent TAILPLANE REAR SPAR , which , for some reason , is "FACING the WRONG WAY" ..ie ...The central , internal wiring lugs at its centre , appear to be "Facing towards the Elevator" ! ,... instead of facing towards the wooden front spar .

To the far Left of the photo , one can Just see the Top of the CURVED TUBE ,coming from above the tailskid position , curving up & round towards the "just" visible point , where it is welded to the Main vertical Tailpost Tube member .....................................[ A...This confirms Camel Only]

The Elongated D ring for Tailskid bungee is attached by a Clip under the square longeron sockets ..............[ B...This confirms Pup or Camel].

There are NO Gusset plates between the Square sockets & the vertical tailpost tube member ....................[ C... confirms NOT a Pup].

There are NO side gussets to fix the D ring between...( thanks to bigger photo)..............................[ D... confirms with B, NOT Snipe].

------------------------------------

Photo#4.....
MOTOR MOUNTING PLATE .
16 holes ....Could be 110 LeRhone , Clerget ,or Bently ...No dimensions given so
Could be Camel or Snipe......[ A...Conformed NOT 80 LeRh Pup ..(12 holes) ].

6 long Slots up each Vertical Side Member ...
.......................................[ B...Conforms Camel or Snipe...ONLY ]
( Snipe has the Slots according to Sopwith Pts Illustration .)

Possible that the 2 Upward & Splayed out Channels behind the motor plate , pointing towards the MG's , for Sopwith Kauper Gear ...Might be there under the brush...Can't be sure .
.......................................[ C...IF there , they then confirms a Camel Only]

-----------------------------

Photo#3... ( This part laying , Right side uppermost , Fwd to the Right ).
RH, UPPER LONGERON Fitting located at Junction between TOP of the DIAGONAL WOODEN MEMBER & the TOP of the 2nd VERTICAL WOOD MEMBER ,... AFT of the Motor Plate Station .
This is the Station corresponding to the REAR MG BRIDGE , CROSS TUBE , which is welded either end , to the RH & LH Brackets , forming one complete assembly .....( Jim K gives this as Pt D.2034.).
There is NO INDICATION of "Welding of the tube" to the Upper side strip part of the fitting .
The tube would overlap on the Inside plate by the Full depth of the strip & the welded joint continue over & cover the rear of the TOP of the fitting .....( There is a Sq Ltng hole in the Fwd portion)
Therefore , we can probably be 90% certain that we are seeing the RH Fitting .
The Cable that holds in the rear of the All'y side panel attaches to a 1/4 BSF ,Eye-Bolt placed some 2+" up the bridge tube on either side...
The Tube part is either missing ( torn away) or buried in the dirt .

The Pattern and Shape of the Lightning holes (see JK's posted Camel drg) precisely matches the crash pieces .
....................................[ A...Confirms its a Camel ..ONLY ]

Reference to Snipe & Pup Photos & Sketches .
.....................................[ Confirms NOT a Pup or Snipe]

The shape of the part shows that it is obviously Not a Spar fitting as BobT thought .

Looking at the fitting , the rear part of the Inside looks torn away & this may be due to the separation of it from the main part of the fitting ,..it may be with the remains of the MG bridge tube .

---------------------------------

Photo #2....[This has been miss- ID'd here on this thread as the " Stabalizer Front Attachment Fitting , B. 2035 " .]

This part actually is the LEFT HAND , LOWER REAR , WING SPAR , BOX FITTING (spar socket) at the INTERPLANE STRUT position .

At the centre of the top of the "Box" , one can see the Single Hole Lug for the Anti-Lift Raf-wire , Part of the Fork end is still attached , pointing off towards the Left & slightly Downwards . ( see photo)

Behind this is the Streamlined Socket ( for interplane strut ,..Pointig Fwd , which is to the Left in the photo.) .
This is integral with its lug on the right , which is for the Incidence bracing wire...
This lug passes a little way down the "vertical" Front face of the "Square "(sic) socket & is welded on .
On this forward facing ( to the right) , "vertical Front face , are formed the Internal Drag & antidrag wiring lugs ...A very BENT ( pos'. French type) Turnbucke is still attached here along with ferrule & bit of wire.
The Square Section shape of this Rear spar box is , as here , more of a regular Dm'd Sq/diamond shape ,... whereas the Front Spar sockets are much Higher relative to their Width .
.................................................. ............[ Confirms a Camel ] .

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Photo #5...This is the TUBULAR SOCKET located at the Mid-point of the ELEVATOR SPAR ...For the Attachment of the TRAILING EDGE TUBES @ the CENTRE ..
It has 6 lightening holes , useful for Sil Solder joint flow .

Welded at an outward angle , at its ends , are 2 Short Streamlined Sockets , that accept the pinned & Sil.Soldering in AP121 Trailing edge Tube .(Either side of the Fin/rudder) .....Just see the taper pins perhaps .
Both the main spar & T/E tubes are broken off at the ends of the sockets .
Without dimensions ...............[ This Only confirms Sopwith part ]

-----------------------------------

Photo#6..See photo , Post # 15 ..OF THIS THREAD.

FUSELAGE ATTACHMENT , SL/LUG , Fittings FOR the TAILPLANE / FIN/ FUSELAGE ,.."BRACING" by Raf Wires & TIE ROD ...( My Description )

This is the two fittings joined by a BENT TIE ROD & held up by a hand .

Each fitting consists of an SL1 (modified), with a wiring plate riveted underneath it ....
These clips fit on the Lower Longeron , first bay Forward of the Tailpost .
The SL clips have the usual bracing wires & ferrules exiting from their lug holes , some parts of which remain in place .
The thick riveted-on wiring plate , can be seen on the TOP of the Inverted LH clip as seen in the photo ...This & the corresponding other side clip/plate are Joined by the BENT Tie rod .

The Bent Rod ( when Strait) , was the " Tension load, Carry-Through Tie Rod" , that passes UNDER the the LOWER FUSELAGE REARMOST WOODEN CROSS MEMBER........Next Station Forward of the Tailpost .
At the outer ends of each RH & LH , SL/lug fitting , a Raf-Bracing Wire goes up to the fitting on the T/Plane Front spar , located appx. Mid-span on each side .
Above the spar , other Raf-Wires go upwards to converge on the Top of the fwd Fin -post .
.............[ This confirms a Camel part , Not a Snipe ,..Not sure exactly how the Pup is , but it's different .]

Jim Kigers drawing above gives the riveted on wiring plate Assy's as D 2094 .
--------------------------------------------------------------

That concludes the ID of the fittings ...All quite simple really ! .

I hope I have placed the Photo #'s in the right order .

--------------------------

If anyone cared to carefully read the threads posted by "powerfix" in an intelligent manner , one will see that , Once some decent size Photos were available , then all these things that say it's a Camel ,..( except the Rear Wing fitting & other stuff that the Moderator obliterated .).... were posted there quite early on ,and long before all the subsequent confused sniping drivel , that needlessly went on .

Regards & QED Camel ...All we need to know now from document guys , is the Military ID .

[RLWP]

Post deleted .

Richard

[John McKenzie]

Post deleted .

[RLWP]

John, I think we must have got mixed up somehow. I don't remember heckling anyone AND there are two posters called Richard in that thread, me (|RLWP) and Pogno. I couldn't tell which Richard you were responding to, especially as I went out for most of yesterday and came back to find the thread heavily pruned.

If I have insulted you inadvertently, I apologise

Richard

MORE:

I'm feeling very defensive about this. I had only one post edited, #41, and what Bruce removed was my poor attempt at humour, to whit:

-
Perhaps it is a Spitfire, where's the data plate?

which I bunged in at the bottom of my post

[John McKenzie]

Originally Posted by RLWP

John,

If I have insulted you inadvertently, I apologise

Richard

MORE:

I'm feeling very defensive about this. I had only one post edited, #41, and what Bruce removed was my poor attempt at humour, to whit: which I bunged in at the bottom of my post

Actually Richard , that was the bit I was refering to ,... joining in with the Trickets Jibes " ...First a Snipe then Pup , what next a Spitfire ,...Etc Etc. "
( This of course , was when I could only see thumbnail Photos .)

However , You Did provide the Larger photos that enabled us all to actually SEE these parts , for which I/we are all greatfull . and I am sure it was unintensional on your part .

Apology Graciously accepted .... consider this as a mis -understanding , with no hard feelings between us .

Regards John M

( I will delete the post )

[RLWP]

Thanks John. I tried to use the Spitfire bit as a coming together - that forum is obsessed with the damn things - and a data plate would mean a new Spit taking to the skies

Not that the skies need a new Spit. They need Pups and Camels!

It's a shame that the thread went as it did, I thought it was a good opportunity to do some proper historical research and to push the focus of that group back in time a little

Richard

[John McKenzie]

Hi Richard ...
Yes , a pity it went that way ...Always the same with that fellow ...The thread on That forum is unlocked , so Mr Tricket is back on , even arguing with the Moderator now .... He Just can't leave it alone though ; has to have the last word with everyone ....He's had another swipe at me again .
Its best to ignore remarks that sort of person .

I for one , have since , had nothing more to do with the thread on That Forum .

Viva The Aerodrome Forum !

JM