Help wanted in identifying two aircraft forced down at Ostend

[Germanophile-1]

Originally Posted by Toxisch

As Tork1945, I enlarged the serial part of the DH9 picture and tried every trick in the (Photoshop) book to "see" more. This only convinced me that what you can read is indeed "D802". There are no traces of a number before the "8". D902 is about the only other possibility acceptable, even though with a lot of precaution.

Concerning the book "Vleugels boven Oostende". The DH9 picture is in there too, but identified as D7302 piloted 2nd Lt. K.A.W. Leighton and forced landed on August 30th, 1918. Thanks to Germanophile-1 we now know that this is not correct an in fact a mixture of two crashes.

<< snip, snip >>

I also have to say that my upcoming book will cover the First World War at Ostend in general and not particularly the air war. Only a few aircraft pictures will be published, but I want the captions to be as correct as possible.

Best regards,

Daniel
Belgian Wings

Daniel,

Please re-read my posting above. I believe that D.7302 IS the serial number of the D.H.9 at Oostende in the image you posted. Since my last posting on this thread, I have searched RAF casualty records and can find NO casualty listing of a British aircraft with the serial number D.802 on any date in World War I.

To explain how the confusion arises, attached is a German photo of D.H.9 C.2183, which was captured on 11 July 1918. Note that (again) due to the dark blue stripe on the left side of the rudder (in this starboard side view), the first two digits appear to be absent. The quality of the film used caused the black numerals to fade into the dark blue. I believe that the same phenomenon that affected the photo of C.2183 also affected your starboard side photo of D.7302.

As you want your caption to be as correct as possible, I recommend you use the serial number D.7802, as noted in the reputable source cited.

Peter

[Froggy]

Originally Posted by Germanophile-1

18 August 1918: D.H.9 D.7302 of 108 Sqn was hit by AA fire over Ostende and "damaged, seen going down fast near Ostende [at] 3:53 p.m." The crew of 2/Lt R.S.S. Ingram and 2/Lt A.W. Wyncoll became POWs.


:

Peter do you mean D 7302 or D 7802 ??

Bruno

[Gregvan]

[QUOTE=Germanophile-1]Note that (again) due to the dark blue stripe on the left side of the rudder (in this starboard side view), the first two digits appear to be absent. The quality of the film used caused the black numerals to fade into the dark blue.

Peter,

Before someone else points it out, I might as well. The trailing stripe on 'the left side of the rudder" was actually red, not blue. Red nearly always photographs extremely dark on the orthochromatic film used, thus appearing almost black - making any black serial numbers on that red stripe 'disappear' as you note. Red almost always appears darker than the ultramarine blue used in British national insignia in period photos.

It became standard practice that on all British and French aircraft, the rudder stripes on both sides were always blue-white-red, with blue forward and the red aft, or trailing. When American aircraft appeared in 1918 (after some experimentation), they generally used the opposite sequence, red-white-blue, fore to aft.

Just FYI.

Greg

[Tork1945]

Originally Posted by Germanophile-1

Daniel,

Please re-read my posting above. I believe that D.7802 IS the serial number of the D.H.9 at Oostende in the image you posted. Since my last posting on this thread, I have searched RAF casualty records and can find NO casualty listing of a British aircraft with the serial number D.802 on any date in World War I.

To explain how the confusion arises, attached is a German photo of D.H.9 C.2183, which was captured on 11 July 1918. Note that (again) due to the dark blue stripe on the left side of the rudder (in this starboard side view), the first two digits appear to be absent. The quality of the film used caused the black numerals to fade into the dark blue. I believe that the same phenomenon that affected the photo of C.2183 also affected your starboard side photo of D.7302.

As you want your caption to be as correct as possible, I recommend you use the serial number D.7802, as noted in the reputable source cited.

Peter

Although the conclusion of Mr. Germanophile sounds reasonable there are a few points against it

• it is not possible to see a four digit number on this picture (as already stated only three digits are visible)
• both references (Bruce Robertson and Sturtivant/Page) do not state explicitly that the D.H.9 series D451 to D950 was not fully built

Given this and by the absence (till now) of official documents of the UK side giving that D.H.9 Dxxxx was lost on August 30, 1918 nearby Ostende and official documents of the German side of the capture of a D.H.9 near Ostende on the same date, I would advise Mr. Toxish to qualify the caption for this photograph in the book.

The serial of the captured D.H.9 cannot be identified with absolute accuracy, due to the unavailability of UK and German records pertaining to the capture of this machine, but it is likely D802 or D7302.

Tork1945

[Germanophile-1]

Originally Posted by Froggy

Peter do you mean D 7302 or D 7802 ??

Bruno

Thanks, Bruno. Good catch. As noted in posting #22 (above) D.7302 is the correct seral number. To keep it all straight, I've since corrected posting #32.

Peter

[Germanophile-1]

[QUOTE=Gregvan;614764]

Originally Posted by Germanophile-1

Note that (again) due to the dark blue stripe on the left side of the rudder (in this starboard side view), the first two digits appear to be absent. The quality of the film used caused the black numerals to fade into the dark blue.

Peter,

Before someone else points it out, I might as well. The trailing stripe on 'the left side of the rudder" was actually red, not blue. Red nearly always photographs extremely dark on the orthochromatic film used, thus appearing almost black - making any black serial numbers on that red stripe 'disappear' as you note. Red almost always appears darker than the ultramarine blue used in British national insignia in period photos.

It became standard practice that on all British and French aircraft, the rudder stripes on both sides were always blue-white-red, with blue forward and the red aft, or trailing. When American aircraft appeared in 1918 (after some experimentation), they generally used the opposite sequence, red-white-blue, fore to aft.

Just FYI.

Greg

Thanks, Greg. Excellent point. I am so accustomed to looking at photos of German aircraft that I did not have a firm fix in my mind about British and French rudder color sequences. They are now burned into my brain .

Peter

[Toxisch]

Hello again,

Thank you all for your excellent advice.
Peter, I'll go for your information. It fits to well in the overall picture.
After more Photoshopping I must admit that a "7" cannot be excluded in front of what I still have difficulties to accept as a "3".

As I noticed that this subject seems to be interesting quite a number of people I herewith include two more pictures taken at the Ostend beach during WWI.

The first is a Sopwith Pub which was forced to land on the beach at Mariakerke (Western part of Ostend) in 1917, while the second picture shows an Albatros D.V (I think) of Marinelandfliegerstation II of Nieuwmunster which made an emergency landing near the Ostend Kursaal (background) on July 29 1917 (according to a caption).





Has anybody more information on these two aircraft?

Best regards,


Daniel
Belgian Wings

[Germanophile-1]

Paul,

Your query has led to an interest in Airco D.H.9 serial numbers. I believe the final proof you sought for your book caption has resulted from this exchange.

MattyBoy offered an interesting element in posting #23 (above), an on-line link to a page from an article in the 13 April 1956 issue of Flight magazine. That page is from the article "The De Havilland D.H.9 - Historic Military Aircraft No. 12" by J.M. Bruce (who has an excellent reputation as a leading expert on British WW I aircraft). For some reason that cannot be explained (as Bruce has since died), he referred to three D.H.9s -- D.759, D.868 and D.902 -- that were never built. Interestingly, when Bruce's landmark book British Aeroplanes 1914-1918 was published that year (1956), in the D.H.9 chapter he made no reference to those three serial numbers.

Roy Sturtivant and Gordon Page in their book The D.H.4/D.H.9 File (p. 157) noted that 500 D.H.9s were ordered bearing the serial numbers D.451 to D.950 and the order was cancelled with machine D.696 -- but that nine further machines were built for export (D.697 to D.705 and then D./725 and D.812 as the final aircraft in that batch).

J.M. Bruce re-visited the matter is a very fine British monograph series when, in 1998, he published Airco D.H.9 - Windsock Datafile 72. This time, Bruce explained the serial number question fully, noting on p. 40 that, while 500 D.H.9s were ordered in that batch, only 246 were delivered, as the contract had been cancelled.

Hence, the record shows there never was a D.H.9 with the serial number D.802 -- but, as previously shown, there was a D.H.9 numbered D.7302 and it landed at Oostende, as you described. Further, Bruce's Windsock monograph contains pertinent photos that show it was the Airco company's standard practice to paint numbers over both the red and blue stripes on the rudders. On p. 4, for example, the port view of D.H.9 C.6052 shows only "C.60" (due to the film of the time) and the starboard side shows "C.52."

Good luck with your book.

Peter

[CNOCK]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

other pick Nieuport 17 - 1 Sqn at Mariakerke

Cnock

[CNOCK]

The Sopwith Pup could have been been downed by Battery Beseler

regards,

Cnock