Being surrounded by many informed and intelligent fellows here, was just wondering if anyone know of the origins of the British Roundel on WWI aircraft?

I know that initially the RFC aircraft had no country of origin markings at the commencement of WWI, and then they were quickly painted once in France with the British flag on upper and lower wings. But who came up withthe idea of a roundel? And when?

Quoting form memory,
The British first started painting the Union Jack in their planes, but at a distance it could be confused with the German cross. The French, quite naturally, used the tricolor cockade, wich goes all the way back to the French Revolution. The Allies decided on using a standardized model of aircraft insignia, patterned after the French cockade, (similar to NATO standards of today) the roundel provided a distinctive design, and easy to differentiate from the German iron crosses, though at a distance the crosses engs merge into a black circle, the colors used on Allied cockades avoided confusion.

When the US entered the war, they couldn't use their version in cockade of the Stars & Stripes because it was already used by the French, so in order to avoid confusion they had to stick to the format in use and employ another variation of the colors

Cheers.

Another question. When did the term 'cockade' become popular? In all my early books on the RFC/RAF (eg 30's, 40's, 50's) the British and French national markings were referred to as 'Roundel's'. Only lately has the term cockade appeared.

I'm desperately trying to find the source of this information .... on Friday, 11 December 1914, the Royal Flying Corps adopted the red white blue roundel on the wings and fuselage of its aircraft; the Royal Naval Air Service initially adopted a roundel for the wings only comprising a red outer circle with a white centre.

Somewhere I've got something on the term "cockard" used by the French (something at the back of my mind says it was to do with the rosettes worn by the revolutionaries during the French Revolution). I'll see what I can find.

Graeme

Well certainly the French (and Germans for that matter) referred to them as cockades at the time (cocardes and Kokardes respectively). Also the word 'cockade' (for circles of cloth attached a helmet as a form of national identification) was also already in the English language. Roundel ('roundelle') is a term found in heraldry so it's possible that they were called that when first introduced rather than basing it on the French terms. I'm sure someone else will be able to come up with something more definitive.

Have fun
Finn

Cobby's question is interesting beyond the markings aspect, because it implies an inter-allied aviation commission with authority to dictate policy. Presumably it was still around in 1917 because, as noted, the Yanks' roundel/cockade had to be different from t'others.

Some of the early British official literature regarding national markings refers to them as "rings". Roundel seems to be a 1930s application.

Cockade became popular with "Cross & Cockade". The term refered to the French insignia and would have been used at the time of the war and would be known to the British who were in consultation with the French.

A summary of official documents with dates and the description - "Cockade", "Rings" "Roundel" - would be most interesting if anyone has this information?

As to the US insignia, it appears that the Navy was instrumental in having the star in circle adopted as the national insignia.

I know for a fact that the RAF (since the early 1930s anyway) has only ever referred to roundels and never cockades. And so I would hazard a guess that it's highly unlikely that the national insignia was ever referred to as a "cockade" prior to this. Sounds awfully french to me! <_<

Junior.

The evolution of the British roundel from the original flag marking has been well covered and I've little to add to that. As to the form and the military use of the roundel itself, however, it dates back to at least the early-mid 1700's :

"Jacobite Troops [those Scots attempting to take Scotland out of the United Kingdom and/or to restore the Stuarts to the throne] had no formal uniform. The white cockade on a blue bonnet became their emblem. It is said to have originated when Bonnie Prince Charlie picked a wild rose and pinned it to his hat."

By the American Revolution the cockade (the French is cocarde) was commonly worn on British/American military headwear. Usually made of ribbon pleated and forming something approximating a circle, others looking more like the petals of a flower, it could be one color or more. Other insignia might be placed atop the cockade. British loyalist troops wore a black cockade on their tricorn hats. American revolutionary dragoons wore a red, white, and blue cockade that looked like a pleated version of the RFC's later roundel. The French Army likely used cockades prior to the Revolution, but the red, white and blue cockade we associate with France today originated with the flag of the Republicans, now the French tricolor. Loyalists (at least the Catholic army of Vendee) wore white cockades. The German states of the period (there was no Germany as yet) also wore cockades on their headgear at this time. On both the brass and the rigid leather helmets of the period the Germans had stamped metal cockades with the state colors, virtually identical to what you see on a WW 1 picklehaube. By the mid 1800's the cockade had evolved into a variety of embroidered forms, some of which were still round, others of which were very oval in shape. Thus, by the time of WW 1 the cockade had a long association with the military uniforms of Europe. WW 1 German headgear uniformly had both the national and state cockades affixed. Moving the cockade onto the airplane would not have been such a stretch.

Standardization of the roundel among all the Allies also made sense, hence the American adoption of the roundel over the three color star and disc design. I've read that the French argued that the American star would be too easily mistaken for a cross. The Americans continued to use the star and disc at home, but not in Europe. It seems odd to suggest that the star might look like a cross, but in the heat of battle you are often not looking at the form itself as much as you are comparing it to what you normally see on a good guy. Good guys have roundels, that thing is angular, so it must be a cross--bad guy-- shoot. Time is not something you always have in abundance in combat.

I meant to do this earlier but their site wasn't working over the weekend. A quick search at the PRO site throws up a file covering February 1915 to June 1916 entitled "Avro 750 aircraft - reports on bomb carrying and release gear for Avros, and size of roundels and Union Jacks" so the British use of the term would seem to go right back to the beginning. A 'roundel' is a circular background in heraldry (or a circular piece of cloth attached to clothing for decoration) so its not too suprising that it was used instead of cockade.

Have fun
Finn

A little note about Italy. We had black "cerchi" (circles) back in spring 1915. For the rest, I always heard of "coccarde", from WWI to nowadays. Here
http://www.aerei-italiani.net/Insegna.htm
it says that cockades became official in dcecember 1917 on planes built in Italy: those built in France arrived with the cockades already on them.