Who is 'green tail'

[Philip_Hawes]

hello all.
i've been re-reading 'flying fury' by the James McCudden,VC, and he talks a lot about a 'green tailed' albatros D.V. McCudden and his flight (56 squadron) frequently met with 'green tail' over the Cambrai sector in late 1917. the aircraft of this particular german flight are described as having red noses, yellow fuselages, but with a different colour tail. McCudden always describes the German who flew the green tailed albatros as a skilled pilot. I was just wondering if anyone knew or could tell me who he was. if it helps McCudden shot down a member of 'green tail's' flight on the 6th december 1917 somewhere north of bourlon wood. ( a blue tailed albatros D V.)

cheers!
Phil

[Romani]

Originally posted by Philip_Hawes@Jun 16 2004, 03:35 PM
[b] hello all.
i've been re-reading 'flying fury' by the James McCudden,VC, and he talks a lot about a 'green tailed' albatros D.V. McCudden and his flight (56 squadron) frequently met with 'green tail' over the Cambrai sector in late 1917. the aircraft of this particular german flight are described as having red noses, yellow fuselages, but with a different colour tail. McCudden always describes the German who flew the green tailed albatros as a skilled pilot. I was just wondering if anyone knew or could tell me who he was. if it helps McCudden shot down a member of 'green tail's' flight on the 6th december 1917 somewhere north of bourlon wood. ( a blue tailed albatros D V.)

cheers!
Phil
This has been answered in earlier threads, but a quick answer to your question is that McCudden shot down a novice pilot that he believed to be "green tail"

The arch-enemy of McCudden was Vizefeldwebel Otto Könnecke of Jasta 5, who flew an Albatros with an all green tail and fuselage, and wings too.

Green tail surfaces was the hall mark of Jasta 5, I remember reading that McCudden believed the leaders of the enemy flights were the ones that had green tails, but all the planes of Jasta 5 where painted that way :huh: so in addition to the difficulties of identification in an air combat it may have been a case of wishful thinking on the part of McCudden :rolleyes:

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Phillip_Hawes:
Green Tail will always evoke a query every time every time someone reads his autobio.
Years ago, I matched up Vzfw Martin Klein who joined Jasta 5 on some date in November 1917. He was shot down on 28 Feb.1918 in the same engagement that Ltn. Hans von Hippel lost the lower left wing on his Alb.D.V 2065/17, with a red dragon on both sides of the fuselage in combat. At that time I had concluded it was Vzfw. Klein that McCudden had shot down, but the locations did not match. McCudden said it was over Vitry about 41 km NW of Beaureavoir where Klein crashed. The action better fits Uffz Julius Kaiser, Alb. D.4448/17 of Jasta 35b, south of Izel and north of Vitry.
Of interest, the description of "Green Tail" could fit the markings of Vzfw Martin Klein? In checking Capt. McCudden's 6 December 1917 victory, an Alb. D.V over Fontaine-les-Croisilles is 12 km SW of Arras in the area of the German 17. Armee. I can't find a corresponding loss in either Jasta 5 or Jasta 35b. It would then have to another Jasta in the 17.Armee in December 1917.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Philip_Hawes]

Thanks very much for all the answers. sorry if i brought up a already solved question. i think that McCudden really captured the essence of the air war between 1914-1918, so any pilot he respected should gain our respect.
thanks very much again,
Phil

[alex_revell]

I suppose that as new people show an interest in WW1 aviation – which incidentally is very welcome – this hoary old question will always periodically raise its head again. To reiterate.
The first sighting of Greentail by the pilots of 56 Sqdn was on the morning of November 23 1917,soon after the Sqdn had moved to Lavieville in preparation for the battle of Cambrai. At this time Jasta 5 were the only Jasta operating in the area. Jagdstaffel Nr.1 moved into the area on November 22 but the war diary of Jagd Nr.1 shows that none of its pilots was in action on the days 56 Sqdn reported sightings of Greentail. Other Jasta could have strayed into the area, of course, but the regular sightings of Greentail and his Flight I think preclude this.
On researching the question of McCudden’s victories on Feb 18 1918 the only German loss which looked to be valid by date and area was Justus Kaiser. Unfortunately, nothing was known about Kaiser – what Jasta, time of loss etc – until an appeal to the later Dr Bock in Germany. Dr Bock came up with the information that Kaiser had been in Jasta 35b. Alex Imrie has the Jasta 35b War Diary and the entry for Feb 18th detailing the loss of both Kaiser and the wounding of von Stein was a mirror image of McCudden’s combat report. Time, place and circumstances all fit.
I have never been able to understand why researchers ever came up with Klein and Hippel of Jasta 5 as McCudden’s victories on this date. The area of their loss is much too far south. Additionally, McCudden would have had to turn south on first crossing the trenches, not north, as he states (from memory). I believe that Klein and von Hippel were shot down by elements of 84 Sqdn.
The only anomaly in McCudden’s reports of meeting Greentail (the real one, not Kaiser) was that the Albatri had different coloured tails, whereas it has now become accepted that Jasta 5 all had green tails. McCudden was renowned in 56 for being a very accurate reporter of events, especially for his bump of location. I’m not sure if it has ever been definitely established that Jasta 5 aeroplanes all had green tails at the time or whether it is one of those statements that have become accepted because it has been stated so often. I do know that photographs of Jasta 5 during this period are not exactly plentiful. Kaiser’s Albatros was as much like a Jasta 5 Albatros to fool McCudden into thinking it was the Greentail the Sqdn’ patrols had been meeting.
In my opinion, there can be no doubt that Kaiser and von Stein were McCudden’s victories on Feb 18 ’18 but that Greentail was very probably Konnecke of Jasta 5.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Alex Revell:
Oblt. Richard Flashar became the Führer of Jasta 5 on 10 June 1917.Some time after his appointment to Jasta 5 he came up with markings for Jasta 5. My guess would July 1917. At which it was equipped with the Alb.D.V with a few Alb.D.III aircraft. I think that after Oblt.Flashar was transferred to Jagdgruppe 2 on 12 May the Jasta markings changed when they received the Fok.DR.I around 15 May 1918.
Blue skies,
Dan-San