Percentage of Two-Seaters to Single Seaters on MvR's Tally

I've noticed that the number of single seaters MvR shot down was actually only 35, And the number of single seaters on his tally increased dramatically near the end of the list which signified that things were getting much more difficult in the latter stages of the war (Aug 1917 and up). From Aug 1917-his death in April the following year MvR shot down only 6 two seaters and 16 single seaters. two-seaters were no walk in the park but I'd like to see the other pilot ratios. I think when they fought and who they fought would shed more light on how really good they were in respect to their peers and the opposition as well. This would be a good research project. I only have MvR's stats. I'd like to know more detail about others. MvR was awesome but looking at the tail end of his kill sheet you can almost see his time and luck running out.

[Billy_Bishop]

You can take this for what it's worth to YOU. But, looking at Bishop's victory count, I counted only 19 2 seaters, of the 72 machines he is credited with. The rest (53) are single seaters. VBR, Al Lowe 'Honourary Canadian Citizen' "On the edge of destiny, you must test your strength. " -- Billy Bishop

That's a pretty good proportion of fighters

Mick Mannock shot down 37 fighters out of a total of 61.
P.F. Fullard 26 fighters out of 40.

[Barrett]

I don't have my Grub Street series with me during the summer, but can refer to some older, less detailed sources. Those of you who don't have any of the Above the Trenches series (and you know who you are!) are really missing something.

Voss bagged 27/48 two-seaters, a fairly high percentage I believe, but his claims were over 90% accurate. As CO Jasta 4 Udet got 39 kills, including 10 two-seaters: mostly Breguets and DHs.

Guynemer was a lot like McCudden: snacked on observation birds with 37/53 or right at 70%.

[Billy_Bishop]

According to ATT, Capt. A.H.Cobby is credited with 29 victories. Of those 29, 19 are single-seat fighters, 5 are balloons, and 5 are 2-seat aircraft.

According to the same book, Major McCudden's 57 victories include 15 single-seat fighters, the rest are all 2-seaters.

Of Collishaw's 60 victories, 46 are single seaters, the rest are 2-seaters. Though I have doubts about one victory listed as a "seaplane". This one could go either way.

Elliot White Springs is listed with 16 victories, 11 of those are single-seat fighters.

All of the above come from "Above The Trences"

VBR,

Al Lowe 'Honourary Canadian Citizen'
"On the edge of destiny, you must test your strength. "
- Billy Bishop

[Richard_Schrader]

We all know that it was the fighter pilots job to shoot down the two-seaters. I'am sure that some planes were easier to
shoot down than others, but I don't believe that any plane which is armed is "cold meat". A number of aces in both World Wars were shot down by R.E.-8's, F.E-2's, M.E.-110's. If someone has a gun, they can shoot you down.

[cam]

MvR was under Boelcke in the early days and Boelckes idea of air superiority was destroying the observation and spotter planes , MvR picked up on that , i think it predominantly depended on what happened to be in the air when they were patrolling.

As to rating against peers , a good pilot is an effective pilot and history shows the leading aces to be effective pilots , they consistently defeated their enemies in the air which is what a scout pilot was there for.

cam

[Reinout]

Well, interesting to say the least.

Personally I don't think it really matters whether an ace shot down more 2-seaters than single-seaters. Who can say that it is less hard to shoot down 27 2-seaters than it is to shoot down 21 single-seaters (Voss)? The Germans never had the numbers to go out on enemy turf on equal terms. They were capable of meeting the enemy on their own ground which in the end happenened because of the Allied strategy. Why do people insist on measuring a person's bravery by the percentage of fighters shot down? What does it prove? I can understand that people look at these percentages (it proves what one wants to believe) but do you really think Bishop is a better airwarrior than say Voss or Richthofen because he's supposed to have shot down a higher percentage of fighters? Hartmann during WWII shot down 352 planes, about 90 of which were twin-engined the rest single-engined fighters/attack planes. Yet a lot of people rate Marseille and Nowotny as better airfighters.
Aces shot down aircraft, it was their job. You cannot expext Richthofen to say upon confronting a lone 2-seater:"Well too bad, it is a 2-seater! I have to shoot down a fighter today or else history might remember me as a coward or a lesser airfighter then my Allied adversaries." Richthofen does not decide what aircraft he will meet in the air.
In recent years I have only too often found that people try to downgrade the performance of pilot X in favour of pilot Y. Usually because of personal motives. Remember the controversy of Ira Jones'statements on Mannock's score? Or the people who actually believed Richthofen had his kills set up for him? The German WWII aces suffered a similar, even worse fate, being accused of having propagande scores! MvR may have shot down a lot of 2-seaters but he also complained regularly about the lack of personal dogfights due to the changing of the air war. He wanted to shoot down Allied planes in personal combat, but the needs of the German war commitment demanded otherwise. For the Germans it was of the utmost importance to shoot down info-gatherers. MvR just happened to be bloody good at it.
Besides, I think the victory-systems of the Allies leaves a lot of things to be desired. You can first prove to me that Bishop and Collishaw shot down as many as they are accredited. Germans were meticulous administrators and this also provided an excellent victory-system. It wasn't foolproof, but it was probably as close as it could get in those days. Same goes for their system in WWII. Of course it was easier to confirm kills made over your territory, but they (on the whole) did not claim kills or OOC's DD's etc. if they didn't have a wreckage to show for it.

[stephen]

1) Not to denigrate Germans in any way, but let's face it... it wasn't their meticulous administration or supreme score keeping abilities that accounted for their more accurate records. It's a lot easier to count ducks when they fall in your own back yard.

2) Statistically, there were more fighters flying over the front at any given time than there were two seaters. Two seaters flew primarily alone or in pairs; fighters flew primarily in full flights of at least 3-12 a/c. This has a heavy bearing on how you weigh your statistics.

3) When counting MvR's scores, remember that when he began his career many of the fighters used by the RFC were in fact two seaters. Specifically the FE series and the Sopwith Strutters were used in massive numbers as fighters, as well as several other minor types. Another big factor to mess with your statistics.