Another Reason We Artists Are Starving

[Patrick]

Martha, I don't want to sound harsh or scolding here, but I think the most important thing that you should take away from this whole episiode is that your art will be a profitable business only when you -- you -- make it so. That will take talent (that you obviously have) and, as Russell put it, and the ability to " . . . take off the warm fuzzy artist hat and put on the cold serious business hat". Your problem with the clerk and her boorish behavior comes from unfamiliarity with the business hat. Here are three suggestions that you should practice until they are automatic:

1. Know the numbers. Value your work -- all of your work. I mean this in the most literal dollars-and-cents fashion. Everytime you look at one of your artworks -- whether it's the name tags you created for Dayton or a painting that took months to complete -- you should know to the penny how much you want to sell it for. Put a dollar value on an hour of your work and the cost of materials and factor them into the price. If you don't have the price of an art object in mind, you're completely unprepared when a sales opportunity comes up unexpectedly -- as they often do. Successful artists like Russell and Mark Miller always know the value of their work and are prepared to discuss it and negotiate a sale.

2. Know the market. Continually look at works similar to what you produce -- and want to produce -- and become familiar with the market's tastes and valuations. Comparable works generally sell for comparable prices. Don't undersell the market (and thereby establish your own weak value in the buyer's mind) nor price yourself so high that serious buyers look elsewhere. You should get at least the same price for your work as other artists get for comparable works.

3. SELL SELL SELL! Never pass up an opportunity to promote your work and ask for the sale. When someone admires your work, talk about it, talk about the other works you have that "if you like that, you'll really like this . . . ", and, most important of all, always, always ask the person to buy it!!!. People are unsuccessful at sales because they don't practice the most fundamental principle of selling -- ask for the business. They think that they need to wait until the customer makes an offer -- this is order-taking, not sales. Successful people sell, losers take orders.

Good luck!!!

[ONEALM]

Sorry I missed all the fun in this thread - what was I doing while you guys were Kinko-bashing ?

My very first (2) thoughts were:

I askeded a (switch to deep voice announcer mode with reverb) "Kinkos Professional" to color copy a little 8 x 10 painting for me and they gave me the "it's copyrighted by the Artist" spiel. When I pointed out I was the artist, showed 'em my drivers license, matched th last name to the name on the painting, they relented.

2nd-ly - and correct me if I am wrong. Don't they have plastered over every copy-making device in the place the REPRODUCTION OF COPYRIGHT MATERIAL IS PROHIBITED BY LAW WITH THE EXPRESS, yada, yada, yada.... sign?

I woulda just pointed Moron-bell to that and been done with it.

I sympathize with your business issues though. Russ seems to be able to switch gears well and I think I am likely in your boat, Martha, though it's slightly different for me since I am not making a living soing this, just supporting an old airplane.... I'm almost indifferent to sales, sell, not sell, either one's OK. Commissions are a different animal all together, but stuff I paint on spec is stuff I would like to have in my home. If it sells, great, if not, sometimes even better.

If I were to seriously start trying to make some $$ doing this, I would take one definitive step - I would paint, Mrs. Me would be the negotiator. It saves me from having to spar with clients and it gives her the "out" of saying, "I know it's expensive, but that's what my husband wants for it."

If you are flying solo, ask Russ for a couple lessons. He's got the gig down to a science. I'm pretty certain, after reading this post and his "Rip Her Head Off" comment earlier, that in spite of his nice-guy exterior, he swallowed a Pit-Bull at some point in his life and it takes over during negotiations !

But he really does have a good approach, a tidy business model and he's just starting. 10 years from now his business net will be so wide, he'll be telling people to take a number for commissions....and able to charge almost whatever he wants for them.

[dpolglaze]

AAC,

I am not an artist, but I practice in intellectual property law including copyright law. I think the best thing you can do is to educate yourself and others about copyright.

The violation by the Kinko's/FedEx personnel was just that, even if "unintentional," and I agree with Russell - you have to step up and be firm. It could result in some hard feelings in the short term, but every time you educate someone, maybe they'll think twice the next time, and you'll have one more conversation under your belt. They get easier.

It's your work. Stand up for it. For further information on general copyright issues, see U.S. Copyright Office.

Dan

This post is for informational purposes only, is not a source of legal advice and is not an invitation to form an attorney-client relationship. If you have a specific need for legal services with an intellectual property matter, you should contact legal counsel before acting on anything in this post. No representation or warranties are made as to the accuracy of the information in this post.

[Taz]

Leader, Russ, Robert, Mike- Here we go again. Take a look at this.


Taz
Terry Phillips

I've released a new video...

[Russell Smith]

Originally Posted by Taz

Leader, Russ, Robert, Mike- Here we go again. Take a look at this.


Taz
Terry Phillips

I've released a new video...

Yeah, I saw that one, Taz. I steered clear of that thread this time. He didn't use any of my work, and last time I made a stink about one of those videos a bunch of people complained as if I was the baddie. I wonder if he asked Steve, Mark et. al. their permission.

Russ

[ONEALM]

...though I probably would have said yes anyway.

I've posted to his thread and hopefully he'll wake up and start asking permission.

If not, I'll have YouTube remove th vid. He's not in a world of trouble from us unless we want to really pursue him, but if the Wootton estate sees it, the kaka will hit the rotating vertically inclined planes.... (no pun intended).

They are much less tolerant than any of us.

[karrart]

On his Forum profile, under "Occupation", he says something like "have enough money, don't need a job"......well......sounds like he could afford to pay licensing fees for his little efforts.
Robert Karr
OLD BIRDS STAYING ALIVE - THE AVIATION ART OF ROBERT KARR

[AAC Cadet Leader]

I'm glad you guys are contributing so much discussion to this subject. Some of you have really offered some very wise advice. Thank you!

I really need to get heading down to my studio/gallery and do what I do best - paint... and try to do better what I do worst - sell.

It would take me a couple of hours to reply directly to each of the great things I've read in your posts, so if you'll forgive, I'm just going to quote a few statements from them that I think are either comforting to me or will be most useful to me in the future. Keep the good advice coming and hopefully I will learn from it.
_______________________________________________

I also would want at least one of those larger prints for free.

I would have told her, that while I am flattered by her praise, I am not pleased with her unauthorized reproduction of my work.

This is deep pain for my point of view.

Remind her that you DID tell her that you were planning to sell these...

I would ask for their head office phone number.

There was nothing innocent about it.

I wouldnt be a total meanie abt it but I would confront her and say that i didnt mind her enlarging but you make aliving off these and it wasnt right for her to make one for her friend that its an infringement of your copywright

That which is given for free is freely discounted by the recipient.

And because you gave into her, she values your work at the price of the paper and ink it takes to reproduce it.

An artist who does not want to exist at the level of a "starving artist" must treat all of their work as part of an ongoing business.

Since you failed to treat your business seriously, your "friend" is now treating it the same way.

She sounds like the kind of person who has a huge collection of mp3 files downloaded off the Net for free, because she believes that any work of art has no tangible value beyond the cost of reproduction.

they have to treat their studio/art as a business

If somebody rips you off, they've taken X amount of minutes from your life, whatever was involved in obtaining whatever was yours and they stole.

your art will be a profitable business only when you -- you -- make it so. That will take talent (that you obviously have)

1. Know the numbers. Value your work -- all of your work. I mean this in the most literal dollars-and-cents fashion. Everytime you look at one of your artworks -- whether it's the name tags you created for Dayton or a painting that took months to complete -- you should know to the penny how much you want to sell it for. Put a dollar value on an hour of your work and the cost of materials and factor them into the price. If you don't have the price of an art object in mind, you're completely unprepared when a sales opportunity comes up unexpectedly -- as they often do. Successful artists like Russell and Mark Miller always know the value of their work and are prepared to discuss it and negotiate a sale.

2. Know the market. Continually look at works similar to what you produce -- and want to produce -- and become familiar with the market's tastes and valuations. Comparable works generally sell for comparable prices. Don't undersell the market (and thereby establish your own weak value in the buyer's mind) nor price yourself so high that serious buyers look elsewhere. You should get at least the same price for your work as other artists get for comparable works.

3. SELL SELL SELL! Never pass up an opportunity to promote your work and ask for the sale. When someone admires your work, talk about it, talk about the other works you have that "if you like that, you'll really like this . . . ", and, most important of all, always, always ask the person to buy it!!! People are unsuccessful at sales because they don't practice the most fundamental principle of selling -- ask for the business. They think that they need to wait until the customer makes an offer -- this is order-taking, not sales. Successful people sell, losers take orders.

It's your work. Stand up for it.

Also, tonight (make that tomorrow night - I'm beat!) hopefully, I'll get the chance to continue telling you my original story of the Kinkos episode and what I did (before you gave me all this good advice)…

[LegendaryLoewenhardt]

In the case of taking your art, knowingly, that's wrong. Trying to make money off of it is even WORSE.

In the case of finding it off something like Google, that's perfectly OK as long as she doesn't try to take credit for it.

[ONEALM]

Your argument is specious at best. At it's core it obviates copyright law simply because the image is viewable by the public. That same argument would allow me to walk into NASM, take a photo of Ferris' B-17 painting and then publish it because I took the photograph. You need to uderstand the meaning of "derivitive work". In this vein, your video is such a piece.

Simply because I - or any other artist - choose to put an image on the web does not make it public property.

I would suggest you:

1) Read the thread more carefully,
2) Read the copyright laws again,
3) Remove the YouTube video before I ask them to
4) ASK before you use any image you "discover" though Google or any other method you care to use.
5) In the absence of doing the above, take cover, 'cause you are going to make some people very unhappy....

Again, I'm sure I speak for most of the artists infinged on this point, we want people to commemorate the men and machines of this period, but in spite of the grandest intentions, you and I and anyone else who creates this kind of work, MUST OBEY COPYRIGHT law.

Come on LL, yell "uncle" and stand up like a proper gentleman.

BTW - Happy Birthday...