Red Baron's signature

[Tim West]

Al,

Your logic frustrates me sometimes Sometimes I agree and others we are no where close.

Mostly I agree with you here other than the point about tracing bits from others as being "fair enough". I dont want to imply what degree of plagiarizing would be fair enough to you but really? You're ok with that? Where is the artistic creativity you allude to in that? Inspiration and copying are two different things to you and I it seems.

The latter portion of your post I think you've made some good points. There are always any number of reasons one will like or dislike art. For me, I find artistic value in the comp and lighting as much as the details. For work as crisp as berrymans is, I'd expect more details to make up for the lack of character and mood. Not that i'm a rad artist but compared to many works..his are not full of mood or depth.
In particular to my point about the errors was aimed more at the historical details of the scenes depicted are wrong..historically. ie..the Voss piece for example.

Either way I think there is merit in both styles and tastes.

It's the copying that Grinds My Gears

Oh cool painting you have btw. Bet you've spent many an hour enjoy it.

[Tim West]

Originally Posted by rainbase

I enjoyed Ivan's post. It had occured tome that many of the aviation artists are probably referencing many of the same historic photographs. In the case of the two Spads, yes there are similarities, but there are also obvious differences. Look at the positioning of the elevator in reference to the tail skid, for example. This sure doesn't look like it was "traced" to me. There are other differences too.

Ivan just explained how he works. This seems right to me.

Just my two cents.

If you were going to copy someone else's work, then wouldn't your change it up some...so people didnt catch on? I would

Obviously there is skill in the technique but the method is wrong.

In the case of SPADS, you are very correct in that artist do use the same source materials but most that I know would not copy them directly for a piece. If people want to commission such copies..fine it's their money. Maybe the artist I know are in the minority when it comes to pride in their craft and respect for their peers.

But yes back to SPADS...Roy Grinnell took the reference shots himself...so how did they end up in the UK? The same "historical" photo doesn't exist.



I moved a portion of the berryman piece over the original....it fits perfectly. Even the highlight near the rear of the head rest bump. It's easy to alter photos, drawings and paintings digitally these days and most people cant even tell the difference.

Also notice the pixels near the arrows. The light area...there is a upside down "L" shaped group of pixels. If these were different..then that could not happen. One was scanned...it appears to me...from the other. The pixels dont lie.

I'm not saying this is what Ivan does but if I was going to do this Id' cut and paste scans of the planes I wanted, maybe rescale them and flip them around...maybe change a few small details in a program like PhotoShop. Then print that out to a canvas and paint over it with oil or acrylics. It'd be the easiest way to do what is about to follow...and

This solely in my opinion of course and in no do I claim that Ivan does this...its just how I'd rip people off if I was do that something that low.

[Tim West]

I think by now we can all tell whos work is who in these but I dug these
up from the last time we talked about this.

Here is Merv Corning's "Man without Fear" with Ivans piece transposed
over the top of Mervs work. IT"S EXACT! Even the pilots big'ol head.



Lol..I know..I'm just seeing S'...!

[Chock]

What I mean by saying 'fair enough' is that if someone wants to do that, then I can't stop them, so there is no point in getting too worked up about it, and one doesn't have to subscribe to viewing such things with any emotion - be it admiration or otherwise, because one can simply choose to ignore it. So if that's the way someone rolls, it's their choice, not that it would be mine, and I wouldn't particularly admire someone for having done so, nor regard it as very inspired, but since I can't stop people doing it, and I can choose to not let it affect me, then all one can really say is 'fair enough' LOL. Don't misunderstand me; that doesn't mean I think it is acceptable to me personally nor do I regard it being especially artistically creative.

But on the other point of defacing a bit of paperwork of historical value, now that is something that I can get wound up about, because like it or not, that does have the potential to affect my interest in historical information that might be gleaned from things left untampered in their original condition.

Al

[Tim West]

Here we have Brian Knight SE5s from Windsock Datafiles #30 and again Brian Knight SE5s from Windsock Fokker DVII Special:



The bottom right has Knights works transposed over Ivans. Note the same odd perspective and reflections on the diving Se5s top wing.

Am I the only one who see's these works to be the same?

[Tim West]

and here is Robert Taylors "High Patrol". Berryman even nailed the crazy wing perspective of the 2nd Camel...or the 1st in Taylors



Again...these look a lot alike.

But I guess that's just me. I'm still amazed how some feel this is a acceptable practice

I just saw your post Al- I know you do not feel it's ok. Lol..got to go see ZombieLand now.

ttfn

[Laserlloyd]

Tim,

Did your pay your Russian Protection Money this time. After the last event here I almost thought they had gotten to you after your 6-7 month hiatus.

Stay well my friend and breath every now and then as I feel your vain in your neck is about to pop...Have a drink and it will be OK

As to Berryman work, I have not placed any of his work on my Dr.I art page as I'm not convinced that his work is original so I choose to leave his stuff off.

Lloyd...

[Tim West]

Originally Posted by Chock

What I mean by saying 'fair enough' is that if someone wants to do that, then I can't stop them, so there is no point in getting too worked up about it, and one doesn't have to subscribe to viewing such things with any emotion - be it admiration or otherwise, because one can simply choose to ignore it. So if that's the way someone rolls, it's their choice, not that it would be mine, and I wouldn't particularly admire someone for having done so, nor regard it as very inspired, but since I can't stop people doing it, and I can choose to not let it affect me, then all one can really say is 'fair enough' LOL. Don't misunderstand me; that doesn't mean I think it is acceptable to me personally nor do I regard it being especially artistically creative.

But on the other point of defacing a bit of paperwork of historical value, now that is something that I can get wound up about, because like it or not, that does have the potential to affect my interest in historical information that might be gleaned from things left untampered in their original condition.

Al

Al,



I was hoping I misunderstood your earlier post. It's cool, we all have our passions I guess

What type of illustration do you do?

[Tim West]

Originally Posted by Laserlloyd

Tim,

Did your pay your Russian Protection Money this time. After the last event here I almost thought they had gotten to you after your 6-7 month hiatus.

Stay well my friend and breath every now and then as I feel your vain in your neck is about to pop...Have a drink and it will be OK

As to Berryman work, I have not placed any of his work on my Dr.I art page as I'm not convinced that his work is original so I choose to leave his stuff off.

Lloyd...

Thanks Lloyd...cheers to you as well...

I'm not going anywhere. In fact things are finally starting to rock again And really there is no need for protection money this time. Lol... they can try scary emails again but this thread has been a valid critique and discussion. All examples fall well with in fair use guidlines.....

It disapoints me more than anything else I reckon, Lloyd. And if people like Ivans art then they should go buy some. It's just not for me, it reminds me too much of the works of others.

And his cocky disregard for the possible ramifications of soiling documents of potential historical record....for a buck is just disgusting. But if some people here feel that's cool, that's between them and their money, as with his art.

Thanks for the beer Lloyd!

[Tim West]

And Ivan, you mentioned I might learn something from you...

Maybe you can explain to me how come your paintings look like tossed off copies of the work of others?

....and
Would you enjoy this same thing done to your "originals"? It'd be a lot easier than trying to think of stuff on your own huh?

Lastly,

How'd this happen?





I'm not sure who did the second painting but they too look the same.
Let's say there are reference photos of this battle, how do you have
such luck at picking the same photos as everyone else?

You're right, I don't understand the art world I guess =/