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JohnReid · 11 October 2009, 05:40 AM

Wow, has this ever been an education for me.I always knew that a certain amount of this stuff went on but not to this extent.And this from so-called professional artists with traditional values.I guess anything goes as long as it is 2D and on a canvas.

Chock · 11 October 2009, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim West

Al,
What type of illustration do you do?

Anything and everything. I originally studied art and design at college, with the intention of going into going into graphic design as a career (or commercial art as it used to be called back then, which is something of a tradition in my family, being in the days of drawing boards rather than computers). I did do that for quite a long time, but then went off on a weird tangent and ended up as writer for a newspaper for about ten years, via being a sub editor (which if you don't know, is kind of halfway between being a designer and a writer). Funny how you can make odd career twists.

Somewhere in amongst that, I also used to work doing oil painting commissions too, so I do understand the commercial and time pressures one is under when taking painting commissions, and the temptation to 'cut corners' shall we say, although I personally never resorted to plagiarism. Many people do in the professional world though, that I do know from personal experience. For example, I used to see journalists shamelessly sat at their keyboards typing stuff in verbatim from other people's work propped up on their desks and not even batting an eyelid or attempting to conceal the fact that they were doing so, which I thought disgraceful, so that probably puts me at odds with many of the sad realities in the commercial world.

It was in fact the poor standards of writing which abounded and acceptance and approval of those lazy practices that was a major spur to me leaving the newspaper industry in disgust, although I did actually come across an old colleague from that world the other day when training, and she too had left, telling me that it was on its ass as an industry (which I had said at the time I left would happen if they continued being lazy and refusing to innovate), so that's quite pleasingly righteous.

When I left that newspaper job about five years ago, I went into training people, mostly on things such as Photoshop, Illustrator, After Effects and that sort of thing, which you are probably familiar with, so I have to have all the proper certifications for all that malarkey, but I also train people in copywriting and graphic design too; one week I might be showing some novice how to design brochures with Quark or how to write a press release, and the next week I might be training police photofit artists on how to use Photoshop! It's worth noting that I always try and teach people the correct way to do things too, so if I step back and head shrink myself for a second, maybe that is my own personal crusade against practices I don't approve of!

That's a real mixed bag - needless to say - so that means I end up getting involved in all kinds of creative work professionally, both traditional and computer-based, as well as stuff probably more like what you do, such as video editing 3D modeling and CGI special effects. But when it comes to traditional painting, that's more of a hobby these days, and I tend to like watercolours and acrylics, with the occasional foray into gouache. However, when I make models, I'm invariably too in love with airbrushing acrylics to pick up a paintbrush! I do love my airbrush, although ironically enough, I did buy a lot of fancy paintbrushes yesterday, so the computers and airbrushes haven't won yet.

Currently all that combination of interests and abilities is coming together with a project I'm working on to make a WW1 short film (this being for personal enjoyment rather than as a commercial venture, although it may end up being an example I use for training), and that will include a new offshoot for me personally, in that I'm attempting to write a classical music score for it too, using digital samples of traditional orchestral instruments (film and orchestral music being another thing I am into - sort of 'painting for the ears' if you like).

That means I will literally be doing every job on making that film. All a bit 'gesamtkunstwerk' as the Germans would say, and I'll be the first to admit that with no classical music training, other than on the guitar when I was a schoolkid, I will certainly be looking at what has gone before and using it to learn (which puts us nicely back on the subject at hand), but hopefully there will not be huge sections of Mahler's symphonies snipped and pasted into what I come up with! I wouldn't want to incur the amusing wrath of your investigative comparisons Tim, which incidentally, do look like pretty conclusive - not to mention professionally embarrassing - evidence of some shady practices.

Al

rexee · 11 October 2009, 12:20 PM

Tim.
Based on your "evidence" and in regards to his first post,I would say Mr.Berryman has some serious ''splain'n" to do!
Seems to me, all he had to initially do was show his"reference" photograph of the Spad
BTW I rip off artists all the time,and I can draw! and I'm also pretty good at forging signatures[ don't trace it, turn the original upside-down and copy it ...trick of the trade]

Rexee

Tim West · 11 October 2009, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chock

Anything and everything. I originally studied art and design at college, with the intention of going into going into graphic design as a career (or commercial art as it used to be called back then, which is something of a tradition in my family, being in the days of drawing boards rather than computers). I did do that for quite a long time, but then went off on a weird tangent and ended up as writer for a newspaper for about ten years, via being a sub editor (which if you don't know, is kind of halfway between being a designer and a writer). Funny how you can make odd career twists.

Somewhere in amongst that, I also used to work doing oil painting commissions too, so I do understand the commercial and time pressures one is under when taking painting commissions, and the temptation to 'cut corners' shall we say, although I personally never resorted to plagiarism. Many people do in the professional world though, that I do know from personal experience. For example, I used to see journalists shamelessly sat at their keyboards typing stuff in verbatim from other people's work propped up on their desks and not even batting an eyelid or attempting to conceal the fact that they were doing so, which I thought disgraceful, so that probably puts me at odds with many of the sad realities in the commercial world.

It was in fact the poor standards of writing which abounded and acceptance and approval of those lazy practices that was a major spur to me leaving the newspaper industry in disgust, although I did actually come across an old colleague from that world the other day when training, and she too had left, telling me that it was on its ass as an industry (which I had said at the time I left would happen if they continued being lazy and refusing to innovate), so that's quite pleasingly righteous.

When I left that newspaper job about five years ago, I went into training people, mostly on things such as Photoshop, Illustrator, After Effects and that sort of thing, which you are probably familiar with, so I have to have all the proper certifications for all that malarkey, but I also train people in copywriting and graphic design too; one week I might be showing some novice how to design brochures with Quark or how to write a press release, and the next week I might be training police photofit artists on how to use Photoshop! It's worth noting that I always try and teach people the correct way to do things too, so if I step back and head shrink myself for a second, maybe that is my own personal crusade against practices I don't approve of!

That's a real mixed bag - needless to say - so that means I end up getting involved in all kinds of creative work professionally, both traditional and computer-based, as well as stuff probably more like what you do, such as video editing 3D modeling and CGI special effects. But when it comes to traditional painting, that's more of a hobby these days, and I tend to like watercolours and acrylics, with the occasional foray into gouache. However, when I make models, I'm invariably too in love with airbrushing acrylics to pick up a paintbrush! I do love my airbrush, although ironically enough, I did buy a lot of fancy paintbrushes yesterday, so the computers and airbrushes haven't won yet.

Currently all that combination of interests and abilities is coming together with a project I'm working on to make a WW1 short film (this being for personal enjoyment rather than as a commercial venture, although it may end up being an example I use for training), and that will include a new offshoot for me personally, in that I'm attempting to write a classical music score for it too, using digital samples of traditional orchestral instruments (film and orchestral music being another thing I am into - sort of 'painting for the ears' if you like).

That means I will literally be doing every job on making that film. All a bit 'gesamtkunstwerk' as the Germans would say, and I'll be the first to admit that with no classical music training, other than on the guitar when I was a schoolkid, I will certainly be looking at what has gone before and using it to learn (which puts us nicely back on the subject at hand), but hopefully there will not be huge sections of Mahler's symphonies snipped and pasted into what I come up with! I wouldn't want to incur the amusing wrath of your investigative comparisons Tim, which incidentally, do look like pretty conclusive - not to mention professionally embarrassing - evidence of some shady practices.

Al

I had no idea you were so artsy =) In a mixed media kind of way too. That's cool you teach your craft. I'd enjoy that sort of thing I think, sharing my interest and passion for Cg with people. Jerry Boucher teaches as well, 3D I believe, I bet it's rewarding...and nice filler between contracts too I'd imagine.

Yeah, I always knew that commercial theft happens, be it in art, design, music... or any creative venture where profit is the motive. It also breeds as much innovation as it does thieves. I guess it comes down to who gets caught

In the case of art....and when it's this obvious...and for profit...it's just wrong. And in Ivans case, a waste of some obvious skills. Why do that to yourself I've been wondering? Oh well....it was his choice to make.

I love water colors and airbrushing. I really like the airy wispy feel of both and when your have to walk up to a piece and ask..is it water color? Then I'am even more impressed. Robert Karr is a old hand with airbrush as well. It's not just for Semi's anymore!

I've just been getting back to sketching and doing more stuff the old ways Lol... seriously it's fun and I've been thinking of getting some brushes my self. Merely for fun of course...I dont like the mess of it all. Heh, it's been many years but fun to get back to. My youngest daughter has taken to drawing and CG so we've been sketching together lately. Good times and she's way better than me

Hey, that sounds like a cool project you're working on and we'll "all" keep you honest around here =) I'm sort of thinking of doing the same thing for a demo reel. I've recently been playing with Motion Builder and wanted to do my own "Dog Fights" Short. Probably even shorter than your short, but with all the production elements of a larger production. Good luck with your film Al...maybe I can poach your ideas for my plot line...j/k

It'd be fun to try, animation is only something I've just started learning in a "professional" capacity. making models isnt doing it for me anymore. They're fun and I enjoy building them but I want more now. I wanna blow S'..t up now

And I couldnt agree more with your closing statement...well said sir =D

Tim West · 11 October 2009, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnReid

Wow, has this ever been an education for me.I always knew that a certain amount of this stuff went on but not to this extent.And this from so-called professional artists with traditional values.I guess anything goes as long as it is 2D and on a canvas.

It's sad huh? And you're right, Ivan sell's himself as one with merit and traditional values. Lol..what' ever.

Tim West · 11 October 2009, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rexee

Tim.
Based on your "evidence" and in regards to his first post,I would say Mr.Berryman has some serious ''splain'n" to do!
Seems to me, all he had to initially do was show his"reference" photograph of the Spad
BTW I rip off artists all the time,and I can draw! and I'm also pretty good at forging signatures[ don't trace it, turn the original upside-down and copy it ...trick of the trade]

Rexee

Rex,

Yep...some 'splain'n would be in order.. And yep...where's the spad reference? It would have at the very least cast some doubt as to my observations.

Even with photos...there are hundreds of different photos of all the planes he paints..how does he always pick the ones that are already published works by others? If they indeed used photos in such the exacting way as berryman does. And I seem to recall not seeing his spad reference the last time it was discussed a year ago.

Just for fun....
Everyone go to the drome gallery and see how many examples of copied works you can find. That's a huge gallery with many aritst. Now go do the same at berrymans. Where'd you find the most at? If as he claims, this is a common professional practice, then WoW...the whole lot of you "pro's" suck a$$.

Seriously, I dont think the better artist out there follow his methodologies as to what makes you a master of your craft.

Now, Rexee..no more copying! though I did enjoy the camel "toe" piece. lol

Chock · 11 October 2009, 03:34 PM

Here's a little clip of some of the music I've written for that movie I'm making:

YouTube - SE5 sound test

Being incidental music, most pieces are very short like this one, and in fact the footage on that video is not the footage which will eventually accompany that music, but you get the general idea. I don't think Richard Wagner has much to worry about in terms of competition, as I'm certainly not a very good composer, but it is fun making that kind of incidental music.

Al

rexee · 11 October 2009, 05:44 PM

"Now, Rexee..no more copying! though I did enjoy the camel tow piece. lol"

Tim, It's Cameltoe Here's my reference photo..

Rex

Tim West · 11 October 2009, 06:06 PM

Lol if only I could spell

Never the less, it's interesting to see we all have our differences in what inspires us.

Tim West · 11 October 2009, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chock

Here's a little clip of some of the music I've written for that movie I'm making:

YouTube - SE5 sound test

Being incidental music, most pieces are very short like this one, and in fact the footage on that video is not the footage which will eventually accompany that music, but you get the general idea. I don't think Richard Wagner has much to worry about in terms of competition, as I'm certainly not a very good composer, but it is fun making that kind of incidental music.

Al

That's actually rather nice Al. With the current animation, it reminds me somewhat of Disney's Fantasia. It sounds clean all the way through. Are you doing any narration along with it? You're a lot further a long than me. I'm still idea'ting about it all =D Well, I'm pretty sure others here would like to see your progress.