Nieuport 11 project

Jesters-Ink · 11 February 2010, 06:11 AM

Hi gentlemen,

I have been advised to post here for help on a joint project I am working on. I am working with a 3D modeller on the Nieuport 11, and we are looking for some good critical advice. This is a non profit based venture designed to help us understand the mechanics of building images in 3D.

Here are some WIP profiles created in 2D to try and examine the differences between the Ni-11, 16 and 17.

Any pointers would be appreciated.
So if you see something that doesn’t look right please point it out no matter how small the problem might be. We have been struggling with even the simplest of things such as wing height and angle.

I would also like to create an accurate profile of a Nieuport carrying the Sioux emblem, so if any reference is available, I’d love to see it.

N-1386 was created from a modellers sight so I'd be interested to know if it is an historic or made up scheme.

Many thanks in advance.

Patrick · 11 February 2010, 07:43 PM

Hi J-I, are you looking for help with the accuracy of the profiles, or with the 3D model?

Is your intention to use the 3D model to produce profiles, or to create other artwork?

For the profiles, there are photos and profiles of N.17s with the Sioux chieftain head in the Albatros publication Nieuport Flyers Of The Lafayette by Jon Guttman, and in Osprey Aircraft of the Aces #33, Nieuport Aces of World War I, by Norman Franks.

On a very quick search, I couldn't find a reference or photo of 1386; I know that Esc N.3 sometimes painted the Cigognes marking in all-red on an all-silver Nieuport. Your profile looks like the reverse of this.

Also consider getting Nieuport Fighters, Volume 1, by J.M. Bruce, and Windsock Datafile 20, Nieuport 17, also by Bruce. These references provide photos, 3-view plans and profiles of your subject. They should go a long way to solving the problems you're having with basic measurements and proportions.

Hope that helps some, if you have specific questions just ask & someone here should have an answer (sometimes many, many answers . . .

)

BLOWHARD · 11 February 2010, 08:34 PM

Heya Jester, you came to the right place, you betcha! And it's about time too.

You might want to post one profile or wing detail in the Aircraft section-
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/aircraft/
Ask about the exact angle etc. Some folks here stick to certain sections and some of your questions are more technical rather than artistic.

I'm sure there is a Nieuport and/or French aircraft expert here at the Aerodrome...but who is it?

paolomiana · 11 February 2010, 10:16 PM

hi Jesters-Ink

It happens to me to have some nieuport-macchi documents related to 11 and 17 scouts.
Please feel free to contact me for any question here or trough my website (listed below)

cheers

Paolo

Jesters-Ink · 11 February 2010, 11:42 PM

Thank you for your response Patrick,

I am looking for help with the accuracy of the profiles, but if there is something blinding wrong with these, then the model may need adjusting too.

Originally we intended to work solely with the model and use it for creating both profiles and 3D scenes, but difficulties with setting up the lighting on the model have led us to pursue alternative routes.

I have access to some of those publications you mentioned, I will look again.

Thanks BH, I will keep that in mind.

Paolomiana, I would be very interested to know which document you have that would help me. I have looked at your link, but cant find anything specific to my needs. Can you help me out please?

paolomiana · 12 February 2010, 12:11 AM

Hi Jesters-Ink,

it depends by how deep (phisically and metaphorically) you wanna go deep in your 3d modelling. The part list and maintenance manuals i own contain a lot of pics and drawings of the inside of the aircraft that may help you in correcty shaping it. so if your doubts are about dimensional aspect these are ok. off course these are almost useless if you're looking to improve the shading-fading of your profiles.

cheers

Paolo

SCMc · 12 February 2010, 12:33 AM

I had a photo of the Sioux head on fabric from a Spa.124 SPAD, but lost it in a recent hard drive crash. I got it from the web, so perhaps someone else here has it, or knows where to find it.

There is a photo of original fabric with the Seminole head at the web site for the Museum of Air and Space at Paris-Le Bourget.

Steve

JerryBoucher · 12 February 2010, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesters-Ink

Originally we intended to work solely with the model and use it for creating both profiles and 3D scenes, but difficulties with setting up the lighting on the model have led us to pursue alternative routes.

That sounds odd. I've created over 100 profiles using 3D models (from which my non-profile art is also based) and it's never been a problem. Some of those profiles the same Nieuport types as the ones you want to depict. What 3D software are you using?

Patrick · 12 February 2010, 07:17 PM

What Jerry said above . . . it's odd that the model is giving you so much trouble.

What kind of lights are you using when you stage it? How many & how arranged?

Can you post a few pictures of the model? Preferably showing the 3D mesh instead of texture maps.

Jesters-Ink · 13 February 2010, 12:27 AM

Paolomiana, both the 3D model and the 2D profiles are going to be outer skin only, no inside detail at all, so what you see is what you get, sort of thing.

For both, we need all the outer dimensions only, but for all views.

Thank you very much SCMc it gave me enough to go on, sadly it wont be going onto the Ni-11, but I have made use of it on the Ni-17.

I did a search and found a small example of the one I needed then resized it to get an idea for the reconstruction of it in CS3.

Here is the head created from scratch, using the original as a guide for scale and colour.

And here it is applied to the Ni-17, with reasonable accuracy.

Jerry and Partrick, the model lighting problem would probably be best explained by the modeller. In our defence on this problem you have to understand we are both absolutely brand new to 3D model building. Mike (our model builder) chose Modo by Luxology as his preferred medium and it has proven to be a very interesting journey where lighting, reflectivity and texture maps are concerned. The model was built in quite a short space of time considering it was Mike’s first model, but the technical lighting side has slowed us right down. I think it’s a question of finding out what settings work best, but we are using trial and error. Once we know what we are doing, I think things will speed up considerably.

Patrick, I will ask Mike to post here today, he is 6 hours behind me, so it will be a bit later on.