The ANZACs- myth and reality

[Pete Hill]

Hi Alex,
sorry haven't read that one but I have recently read one of Mark Urban's previous books -'Rifles' which is the history of the famous British
95th 'Greenjackets' regiment of sharpshooters during the Pensinular War in Spain and Portugal 1809-1814 and then in Waterloo in 1815. I found it a great read so if that is any indication, you should enjoy this one.
Pete

[alex_revell]

Thanks Pete. I'll keep an eye out for his other book. Have you read any of Julian Rathbone's novels. I think you'd enjoy them.

[RussGannon]

Pete

Am I right in saying 'Rifles' by Mark Urban is where you got the notion of some 1/95th running off at Waterloo comes from?

Just interested

Russ

[Pete Hill]

Hi Russ,
yes you are right. According to Urban's book, about 100 soldiers of the 95th abandoned their posts without orders during the battle and were seen to depart to the rear without any apparent injuries. Most of these desertions occured during the massive cannonade directed at the Allied positions around La Haye Sainte in Wellington's centre. However it must be pointed out that this was only a fraction of the regiment. I raised this issue only to show that it wasn't just the Dutch-Belgians whose units suffered desertions during the battle.
Warm regards Pete.
PS, Stayed tuned for my next posts on the March Offensive and the BEF in 1914.

[Pete Hill]

Hi Alex,
no I haven't read any of his books. In fact until you mentioned his name, I had never heard of him! However after a bit of research on the internet, I certainly want to start reading his novels, I will track down a few of them and give them a try. Thanks for the heads-up. Pete

[RussGannon]

Pete

Yeah there is a copy of 'Rifles' here in the library I use. I was just wondering, as I mentioned in an earlier post as to whether you had read the 'Waterloo Letters'? I kind of swear by it. Most of the letters are pretty candid - soldier to soldier.

I think all soldiers in all Armies have their bad hair days. I remember earlier a guy wrote in about Aus 6 Div giving it to the Fallschirmjaeger and the Waffen SS in Greece & Crete. In truth, I think it was the 2/8th, ultimately broke and ran when assailed by Liebstandarte - dropped their rifles and everything. Ultimately everyone can reach their limits.

Russ

[NeilE]

Originally Posted by RussGannon

Pete

Yeah there is a copy of 'Rifles' here in the library I use. I was just wondering, as I mentioned in an earlier post as to whether you had read the 'Waterloo Letters'? I kind of swear by it. Most of the letters are pretty candid - soldier to soldier.

I think all soldiers in all Armies have their bad hair days. I remember earlier a guy wrote in about Aus 6 Div giving it to the Fallschirmjaeger and the Waffen SS in Greece & Crete. In truth, I think it was the 2/8th, ultimately broke and ran when assailed by Liebstandarte - dropped their rifles and everything. Ultimately everyone can reach their limits.

Russ

How true. I think it was the AIF's 57th Battalion that broke after being caught in the open by a particularly nasty barrage at Glencourse Wood during the fighting for the Menin Road. The 57th was a very experienced battalion too. Once they were out of it and regrouped they went back and fought well.

The German regiments and storm troops at Villers Bretoneux couldn't take the close in hand to hand fighting and broke as a result.

The saddest example is the British Fifth Army to a degree. Moved to The Somme after being depleted and exhausted physically and mentally at Third Ypres, they were caught by surprise by the German March offensive, despite many fierce rearguard actions, the exhausted British could not stand up to the German offensive. Following this, some elements of the Fifth Were moved to around Hazebrouck and also to the Chemin des Dames where they went through the same experiences again. By the end of it some units had almost ceased to exist, and were done as a fighting force for the rest of the war.

Some German regiments went through similar experiences on the Russian Front in World War II, almost followed by Russian offensives as they were moved about different parts of the German front line in order to recuperate.

[RussGannon]

Neil

I always feel the Fifth Army gets poor press re the March retreat. In my view, yes they were tired and worn, but they were given too much of a frontage due to Anglo-French politics. When the French started pushing troops in and the Fifth got a chance to reduce their frontage and consolidate around Rosieres from 26 Mar - they effectively stopped the German push in its tracks for two days and only relinquished the Rosieres pocket when a retirement on the Third Army front north of the Somme left their left flank exposed.

I also think it is dangerous to talk about BEF Armies as fixed articles, as division's were moved in and out all the time. It would be fair to say the whole BEF was tired after the exertions of 1916 & 1917. And as I understand pretty well all its divisions were represented in the final pushes Aug to Nov.

Some German units broke and ran in Normandy too, including the Panzer Grenadiers of the elite Panzer Lehr. And of course our US friends had their moments too.

PS Did you know I was an extra in the old Aussie mini-series ANZACS. The Army got called upon to provide extra's for some of the bigger sequences. Played a member of 60 Bn in the 9 Aug 18 sequence, when they were relieved by 8 Bn. Also a German in the Broodsneide night counter-attack sequence. Still got photo's and news clippings. What would the Germanophiles think - yours truly dressed up as a German with a very real 1914 Mauser and very real and evil looking bayonet. As the belt buckle on the very real webbing read: Got Mit Uns.

Cheers Russ

[Pete Hill]

Hi Neil & Russ,
stop pre-empting my next post! I was going to start a new one on the March Offensive in a day or two. Just kidding.
Hi Russ,
were you really an extra on ANZACs ? I will have to watch those scenes again on my VHS copy. I remember they filmed a lot of that near Ballarat Victoria. When I studied art at Ballarat University back in 1990, my sculptor lecturer's son had been one of the set designers and builders. He built the ruined French village which featured in several scenes and made the dummies which played the roles of corpses.
I enjoyed that series but there were some aspects I liked better than others. I found some of the characters a bit two-dimensional and a few of the performances below par, something which better script development could have ironed out. For instance, the pompous Australian Politician who appears in the home scenes is just too cartoonish to be true. And some of the Aussie actor's efforts at British accents were dreadful.
Some of the battle scenes were more convincing than others. The episodes covering 1916 and 1917 were the better ones, especially the portrayal of Pozieres. But I was less convinced by the Gallipoli Landing sequence- I think the location they chose was the problem. And I felt the March 1918 Offensive sequence bore more resemblance to Mons or Le Cateau than the former.
One positive was the time the series took to acknowledge the courage and efforts of the English, something that could not be said for many written histories of the Anzacs published before this series! Another is the series' portrayal of the ethnic make-up of the Anzac Corps, the Platoon including two Danes, a German and an Englishman, avoiding the popular stereotype of the Anglo-native born Digger. I wish Hollywood would do the same for the American Civil War or the Plains Indians war. The Union Army and the US Cavalry included a high number of foreign-born recruits, encompassing a great variety of Nationalities- German, Dutch, Italian, English, Scottish, Welsh, French, Polish, Spanish etc. However, in any film of these wars, all foreign-born members of any unit are always 100% Irish!
Warmest regards Pete

[MerlinV]

I just picked up a copy of Les's "The Great War" from Borders for 19.95 Australian. I shall have to revisit this thread after i have finished it.

Cheers,

Hugh