The ANZACs- myth and reality

[RussGannon]

Pete

Yes it was largely filmed at Beverage just west of the Hume Highway to the north of Broadmedows. It was a great experience. One memory that stands out was that Paul Hogan was a shorts arse. Nice enough guy though. In the Broodsniede night counter-attack sequence I'm one of the Germans who ultimately gets captured. I never saw the episode relating to the Aug offensive - I was away on exercise. The DVD is available as you know, but it is a little pricey. If I was a computer wiz I would use a picture of myself as a 60 Bn digger on this site.

Yes the ethnic make up is important. In this Library there is a book drawn from an Australian officers notebook - and nearly half his men are from oversea's - mostly UK. And I think I'm right in saying that half of the men who died with Custer were oversea's born - Germans, Irish & English.

A thread on the March Offensive sounds OK to me.

Cheers Russ

[Jenny]

Don't forget the Italians! Jenny.
P.S. Father's Day arrives next month. Any suggestions on what I might give e my dad would be much appreciated. Non fictions books please. Jenny

[NeilE]

Originally Posted by RussGannon

Pete

Yes it was largely filmed at Beverage just west of the Hume Highway to the north of Broadmedows. It was a great experience. One memory that stands out was that Paul Hogan was a shorts arse. Nice enough guy though. In the Broodsniede night counter-attack sequence I'm one of the Germans who ultimately gets captured. I never saw the episode relating to the Aug offensive - I was away on exercise. The DVD is available as you know, but it is a little pricey. If I was a computer wiz I would use a picture of myself as a 60 Bn digger on this site.

Yes the ethnic make up is important. In this Library there is a book drawn from an Australian officers notebook - and nearly half his men are from oversea's - mostly UK. And I think I'm right in saying that half of the men who died with Custer were oversea's born - Germans, Irish & English.

A thread on the March Offensive sounds OK to me.

Cheers Russ

Its a pity you didn't get to spit Andrew Thingummy (Martin Barrington -the main character) on your sharp German bayonet! I could stand most of that series - even its shortcomings - but I find when i watch it even now, he is one annoying digger!

I agree the Pozieres and Third Ypres scenes are the best battle recreations - the rest just arent busy enough really - the German attacks on Hazebrouck are so underpopulated it wasn't funny (1918 manpower shortages maybe?) as was the Amiens fight. Same with the Gallipoli sequences.

"Would-to God" Ernshaw was a caricature but maybe not such an inaccurate one. Some of the country politicians of the time were fearful spruikers for the war effort. I did like the scene when his son first arrives on the Western Front and gets things lively. Not an unknown occurence in most of the armies there I think.

And my favourite line....

"Can you see anything?"
"Yes I can sir"
"Well, what do you see?"
"Just two sparrows havin' a naughty and a half starved thing like a magpie, Sir"

Yes... Kaiserschlact please...

[Pete Hill]

Hi Neil,
it was Andrew Clarke. Haven't seen him in much lately. He was in that Channel 7 series Always Greener a few years back. He's beefed up a tad, too (ooh, I'm such a bitch!). You are right about the Hazebrouk scenes- rather a small counter-attack, it seemed. Makes you wonder how the Germans advanced so far in the first place?!! And the Gallipoli coastline looks like some gentle sand-dunes that my Dad could run up without breaking a sweat.
I suppose I should be fair, battle-scenes are expensive to film especially if you are on a tight budget. If you ever saw the movie "The Big Red One", a 1980 war movie directed by real-life D-Day veteran Samuel Fuller and starring Lee Marvin and Mark "Luke Skywalker" Hamill, the Omaha Beach sequence in that was filmed with about 20-30 extras and one Landing Craft.
Likewise the Battle Scenes in the 'Sharpe' series of tele-movies (shown on UKTV on Pay TV last year). All the major Battle scenes had about 100- 150 extras at most(some with even fewer) and lots of close-ups and clever camera angles.
The true 'epics' in terms of conveying the scale of battles in a realistic sense were the older films like the Russian-productions of 'Waterloo' and 'War & Peace' and WW2 epics like "The Longest Day'. Nowadays, they can use CGI of course.
By the way, Neil, thanks for getting me onto the books 'Flak' and 'Somme Mud'. My local K-Mart stocked both of them and I have devoured them both. Turns out it was the same Michael Veitch who used to appear on The D-Generation and Fast Forward back in the 1980s and early 90s. I never knew he was such a military history fanatic. The forward he wrote for the book really struck a chord with me because his childhood that he describes was so similar to my own with his lonely obsession with all things aviation and war.
I writing this on my laptop at 12.30 at night because my little 2 year-old has an ear infection and won't sleep so he is watching a Wiggles DVD. If I have to sit through 'Hot Potato' once more, I think I may go insane.
Warmest regards Pete

[Pete Hill]

Hi Russ,
yes you are right, quite a few of Custer's 7th Cavalry were foreign-born immigrants, some of whom spoke little English. In fact, the Trumpeter who carried the infamous message back to Major Reno requesting help was an Italian named Martini and he spoke barely a word of English (getting the task of carrying the message saved his life and he became the last white man to see Custer and the other 210 men alive). Many of the troopers were painfully young, too and some had quite poor riding skills. The forensic examiners on the show 'Battlefield Detectives' also found that many of the men had severe spinal and pelvic strains and injuries from riding on hard saddles over rough, dry ground. Quite a contrast to the Hollywood image of the grizzled, tobacco-chewing veterans of the Plains.
Regarding Anzacs, do you have a VHS player or just a DVD? Let me know. Pete.

[Pete Hill]

Hi Jenny,

you are right, we shouldn't forget the Italians. As you probably just read, I was telling Russ about Martini.
Assuming your Dad is into military stuff, I would recommend:-
"The First World War" -Hew Strachen. A one-volume condensed version of his planned multi-volume epic history of the Great War. You may not agree with his opinions but he certainly has a new slant on many aspects of the war.
"Tommy" -Richard Holmes. His most recent book, an excellent description of the lives and experiences of the British Soldier in WW1. He challenges many popular perceptions and myths and he has a deep respect and understanding for that generation.
"Aces Falling: War above the Trenches, 1918"- Peter Hart. Only out in hardback at the moment (the paperback is not available until January). An excellent history of the last violent months of the air war over the Western Front.
"Blue Man Falling" & "Band of Eagles" - pair of highly enjoyable fictional novels set in the WW2 air-war about a British fighter squadron, focusing on a British and American pilot. Blue Man is about the squadron flying Hurricanes defeding France against the 1940 Blitzkrieg whilst Eagles involves Spitfires in the defence of Malta, 1942.
Hope this helps. Pete

[alex_revell]

Pete,
Yes, I agree both Blue Man Fallng and Band of Eagles are a good read. They both have the token Yank, of course, but he's quite an acceptable character. Talking of Custer. I rmember the film with Errol Flynn, They died with Their Boots On. The night before Little Big Horn, Custer's (Flynn's) adjutant, an Englishman, tells Custer that he wants to be there the next day. Custer tells him that as an Englishman he has no part in an American quarrel. The adj replies something on the lines of 'don't kid yourself, the only real Americans on those out there on the other side of the hill'. About the only thing in the film that had the ring of historical truth. Good stuff tho'. I've always been a fan of Flynn, mainly because of Olivia de Haviland in his films, who I have lusted after ever since I saw her in Robin Hood at the age of about nine. I was a precocious child!

[Pete Hill]

Hi Alex,
I don't mind Flynn myself either although I can't help but chuckle at his earliest film parts where his Australian accent was still obvious. Its very obvious in parts of "The Charge of the Light Brigade" especially when he's delivering such lines as 'don't you worry, I'm a British Officer' with the Tassie twang still quite distinct in his voice. May as well have said, 'now don't you worry, love, she'll be right.'
Regarding the film "They died with their Boots on", I remember reading how only about 20 or so of the Indian extras were actually true Native Americans and they were used for all the close-up shots. All the rest who appeared in the long-shots were Whites who wore make-up and feathers. Still, that is nothing un-usual, all the British, French and Prussian soldiers in the 1970 movie "Waterloo" were played by Russians.
Regards Pete

[NeilE]

Originally Posted by Pete Hill

Hi Jenny,

you are right, we shouldn't forget the Italians. As you probably just read, I was telling Russ about Martini.
Assuming your Dad is into military stuff, I would recommend:-
"The First World War" -Hew Strachen. A one-volume condensed version of his planned multi-volume epic history of the Great War. You may not agree with his opinions but he certainly has a new slant on many aspects of the war.
"Tommy" -Richard Holmes. His most recent book, an excellent description of the lives and experiences of the British Soldier in WW1. He challenges many popular perceptions and myths and he has a deep respect and understanding for that generation.
"Aces Falling: War above the Trenches, 1918"- Peter Hart. Only out in hardback at the moment (the paperback is not available until January). An excellent history of the last violent months of the air war over the Western Front.
"Blue Man Falling" & "Band of Eagles" - pair of highly enjoyable fictional novels set in the WW2 air-war about a British fighter squadron, focusing on a British and American pilot. Blue Man is about the squadron flying Hurricanes defeding France against the 1940 Blitzkrieg whilst Eagles involves Spitfires in the defence of Malta, 1942.
Hope this helps. Pete

Hi Jenny;

In addition:

The Great War

"Death's Men - Soldiers of The Great War" - Denis Winter - British Infantry experience from Enlistment and before to demobilisation or death - and everything in between.

"Passchendaele - The Sacrificial Ground" - Nigel Steele and Peter Hart
"Jutland - 1916" - Steele and Hart

"No Parachute" - Arthur Gould Lee - A well written Airman's memoir.

"Covenant With Death" - John Harris - Fictionalised account of a Pals Battalion and its fate on 1st July 1916.

"The Middle Parts of Fortune" - Frederick Manning - Forgotten classic novel of the Great War.

"The Great War And Modern Memory" - Paul Fussell

World War Two

"The Battle of Hurtgen Forest" - Charles Whiting

"Typhoon Pilot" - Desmond Scott
"One More Hour" - Desmond Scott

Enjoy...

cheers

Neil

[NeilE]

Originally Posted by Pete Hill

Hi Neil,
it was Andrew Clarke. Haven't seen him in much lately. He was in that Channel 7 series Always Greener a few years back. He's beefed up a tad, too (ooh, I'm such a bitch!). You are right about the Hazebrouk scenes- rather a small counter-attack, it seemed. Makes you wonder how the Germans advanced so far in the first place?!! And the Gallipoli coastline looks like some gentle sand-dunes that my Dad could run up without breaking a sweat.
I suppose I should be fair, battle-scenes are expensive to film especially if you are on a tight budget. If you ever saw the movie "The Big Red One", a 1980 war movie directed by real-life D-Day veteran Samuel Fuller and starring Lee Marvin and Mark "Luke Skywalker" Hamill, the Omaha Beach sequence in that was filmed with about 20-30 extras and one Landing Craft.
Likewise the Battle Scenes in the 'Sharpe' series of tele-movies (shown on UKTV on Pay TV last year). All the major Battle scenes had about 100- 150 extras at most(some with even fewer) and lots of close-ups and clever camera angles.
The true 'epics' in terms of conveying the scale of battles in a realistic sense were the older films like the Russian-productions of 'Waterloo' and 'War & Peace' and WW2 epics like "The Longest Day'. Nowadays, they can use CGI of course.
By the way, Neil, thanks for getting me onto the books 'Flak' and 'Somme Mud'. My local K-Mart stocked both of them and I have devoured them both. Turns out it was the same Michael Veitch who used to appear on The D-Generation and Fast Forward back in the 1980s and early 90s. I never knew he was such a military history fanatic. The forward he wrote for the book really struck a chord with me because his childhood that he describes was so similar to my own with his lonely obsession with all things aviation and war.
I writing this on my laptop at 12.30 at night because my little 2 year-old has an ear infection and won't sleep so he is watching a Wiggles DVD. If I have to sit through 'Hot Potato' once more, I think I may go insane.
Warmest regards Pete

Ah "Hot Potato" - still you could leaven it out with a few bursts of "Fruit Salad" or "Big Red Car"...

What did you think of "Somme Mud"?

I understand what you mean about Veitch... he has a real feel for the subject I think... and the forward struck some chords for me also.

Cheers

Neil