Nungesser: assistance on Current BIographies needed.

[Rittmeister]

I’d like to be able to find more data on his early career in VB106 before going the N65.
The only bios I have heard of other than several that deal with the Atlantic crossing attempt are:

1946: Le Roman de Nungesser, by Florian Parmentien, publ. by Editions Paul Dupont

1953: Le Chevalier du Ciel: Un Bagarreur Héroïque Charles Nungesser, by Marcel Julian, publ. by Amiot - Dumont (199 pages)

1961: Nungesser L'as des as ( Ace of Aces) , by Marcel Julian, publ. by Le Livre Contemporain (254 pages)

I have seen used copies available for the second and third from time to time, but know nothing about the first. Since my French reading is rather weak (but getting better!), deciphering them could be a bit of a struggle. The last two are by the same author 8 years apart and similar length. I was wondering which (if you have one or both) is considered the best or more accurate. Any assistance with translations or recommendations or these or other books would be so greatly appreciated.


We’ve all seen or read of some of Nungessers exploits such as the encounters with allied aircraft and the resulting Tricolor stripes on Nungessers planes thereafter, or the legend of him taking off shooting down and killing the pilot of German aircraft and dumping the body at the feet of the mother of an American aviator, who was visiting her son at the time. I want/need to obtain combat information from reports, Marcel Julians book, or other sources (much was lost during the 1940-1945 occupation according to Armee de l’air sources.


Here are some excerpts from a book published in 1965 “ High Flew The Falcons” written by Herbert Molloy Mason, which is in itself a decent read on the life and combat histories of Navarre, Madon, Guynemer, Nungesser and many other French aces. What I’m attempting to verify is the truth or lack thereof of these actions based on other authors and their sources.


“Three days after his return he flamed a balloon near Septarges,
and the following morning he shot an L.V.G. from the
sky. On April 4, he jumped a German twin-engine monster
carrying four crewmen, all protected by armor. The huge plane
seemed to bristle with machine guns firing in all directions.
Nungesser warily circled this flying fortress, firing snap shots at
it and feeling like a terrier about to charge a rhinoceros. Then
he waded in through a whistling, cracking torrent of machinegun
fire and managed to put a burst into the pilot. The leviathan
flopped ponderously to earth near Hauts-Foumeaux.
Nungesser flew home with his plane riddled; one hole through
the center of his windscreen, and a bloody ear lobe from a
passing Parabellum slug.”

“In the early summer, over Verdun, Nungesser tangled with
two Fokkers flown by experts. Back and forth the battle raged,
the air filled with the snarl of rotary engines and the steady
crackle of machine guns. Something slammed into Nungesser's
mouth and he began swallowing blood; a Maxim slug had
caught his mouth at an angle, almost tearing away his upper
lip. He stuffed his silk scarf inside his mouth, clamped down on
it with his gold teeth and kept flying. Most aerial duels were
decided within minutes, but this one roared across the sky for
nearly an hour. In the end, maddened with pain, Nungesser
shot down both Germans and limped home. Some time later,
when he was released from the hospital with orders to take a
one-month convalescence leave, Nungesser returned to Verdun
and attached himself to the already famous Escadrille Amkricaine

Thank you in advance for your input and assistance.

Rittmeister

[wacoavn]

Nungesser and Raoul Lufbery overlapped slightly in VB-106 in the fall of 1915. The records I have been able to find at Chateau Vincennes on VB-106 during this time were slight, though I did come across some records which showed that N-65 was attached to Groupe de Bombardment 2 (AKA GB 102) at this time, which also included VB-106. I did find one notation indicating Nungesser was issued a side arm from VB-106 when he was a member of N-65 during this time.

A am trying to figure out if Lufbery and Nungesser assocaited much (maybe Nungesser protected Lufbery's bombing missions?) and maybe this might have been part of the reason Nungesser headed off with the Lafayette Escadrille (N-124) later on. As a side bar I am also looking to see if their paths crossed with Mata Hari!?!?!

William Nungesser, an American desendant of the Nungesser family knows a lot of the history, both published and unpublished. I am hoping he might read this and chime in.

Steve Suddaby has also done some great work on French Bombing activies during the war and has at least one book including some info on VB-106 and Nungesser. It would be great if he saw this and also commented.

At Steve's suggestion, when I go back to France, I am going to attemp to pull records for Groupe de Bombardment 2 to try and find more mission info for VB-106 during this period.

[vb136]

I wrote an article about the original GB 2 of 1915-1916, this being published in Over The Front, some years ago. All my journals are in store, so I can not help you with the number, I'm afraid. I suppose you can trace the issue # via
the OTF home-page.
In the article, Nungesser and his service with VB 106 is mentioned, including the real identity of the gunner who was involved in Nungesser's first victory on 31 July 1915. It was NOT his mechanic Pochon!
The original war-diary of GB 2, called Journal de Marche, was, at least then, available for study at the French air-force archives, Vincennes.

[Rittmeister]

Originally Posted by vb136

I wrote an article about the original GB 2 of 1915-1916, this being published in Over The Front, some years ago. All my journals are in store, so I can not help you with the number, I'm afraid. I suppose you can trace the issue # via
the OTF home-page.
In the article, Nungesser and his service with VB 106 is mentioned, including the real identity of the gunner who was involved in Nungesser's first victory on 31 July 1915. It was NOT his mechanic Pochon!
The original war-diary of GB 2, called Journal de Marche, was, at least then, available for study at the French air-force archives, Vincennes.

THanks for the update. I recently moved also and about 60% of my books are still in that darn storage building.At least it's climate controlled! I'm not certan but the was a periosd there when I had to unsunscribe in the 90-92 time span. Someone else told me there is a good Nungesser article in the 91 issue set.

Intersting about Pochon. I had never heard that one. I'll have to investigate this further. Thanks for the leads and info!

Like all WW1 items of interst, it seems sometimes the bad infrmation outnumbers the good.

Don

[Rittmeister]

[QUOTE=wacoavn;482473]Nungesser and Raoul Lufbery overlapped slightly in VB-106 in the fall of 1915. The records I have been able to find at Chateau Vincennes on VB-106 during this time were slight, though I did come across some records which showed that N-65 was attached to Groupe de Bombardment 2 (AKA GB 102) at this time, which also included VB-106. I did find one notation indicating Nungesser was issued a side arm from VB-106 when he was a member of N-65 during this time.


I just received my latest issue of OTF today and almost the entire issue is devoted to N124. Tons and tons of photos I had never seen before. Numerous references to Nugesser. The primary artile was written by Alan Toelle so we know it's been rearched to the nth degree. Look for it soon in a mailbox near you!

[Froggy]

Originally Posted by vb136

I wrote an article about the original GB 2 of 1915-1916, this being published in Over The Front, some years ago. All my journals are in store, so I can not help you with the number, I'm afraid. I suppose you can trace the issue # via
the OTF home-page.
In the article, Nungesser and his service with VB 106 is mentioned, including the real identity of the gunner who was involved in Nungesser's first victory on 31 July 1915. It was NOT his mechanic Pochon!
The original war-diary of GB 2, called Journal de Marche, was, at least then, available for study at the French air-force archives, Vincennes.

Hello
May be you don'know ,but most of archives of SHD are now on line
like the JMO of GB2
Here===> Mémoire des hommes ? Journaux des unités 1914-1918 ? 1_A_284_002

Here the diary of 31 july 1915


Translation:

"at 6h 45 adjudant Nungesser (gunner André of GB 103) attacked an albatros which was bombarding a drachen at Bezaumont. The German plane seems to have his gun jammed and landed in front of his trenches ,1 km east of Nomeny. The aircraft was brought into our lines . the Pilot and passenger succeeded to escape. The investigation can not demonstrate whether victory can be attributed to the firing of the aircraft or the artillery"
The gunner was Gaston Aimé André and not Pochon
SGA - mémoire des hommes - Fiche

The captured Albatros can be seen Here at Nancy with Nungesser in front of It
Avions exposs Nancy

Later Nungesser claimed this victory and he sent a report to his group leader .Later inquiry gave him the victorywith the following citation:

"Ayant rencontré un avion ennemi au cours d'un essai d'appareil n'a pas hesite a descendre en l'empechant de rejoindre ses lignes et assurant ainsi la prise de l'appareil"

"Having met an enemy plane during a flying test has not hesitated to attack preventing it from reaching its lines and allowing the capture of the device"

(Source:Carré d'as de Jacques mortane)

Cordialement
Bruno

[Gregvan]

Great information, Bruno! Thanks so much for sharing that.

Greg

[Rittmeister]

Originally Posted by Froggy

Hello
May be you don'know ,but most of archives of SHD are now on line
like the JMO of GB2
Here===> Mémoire des hommes ? Journaux des unités 1914-1918 ? 1_A_284_002

Here the diary of 31 july 1915


Translation:

"at 6h 45 adjudant Nungesser (gunner André of GB 103) attacked an albatros which was bombarding a drachen at Bezaumont. The German plane seems to have his gun jammed and landed in front of his trenches ,1 km east of Nomeny. The aircraft was brought into our lines . the Pilot and passenger succeeded to escape. The investigation can not demonstrate whether victory can be attributed to the firing of the aircraft or the artillery"
The gunner was Gaston Aimé André and not Pochon
SGA - mémoire des hommes - Fiche

The captured Albatros can be seen Here at Nancy with Nungesser in front of It
Avions exposs Nancy

Later Nungesser claimed this victory and he sent a report to his group leader .Later inquiry gave him the victorywith the following citation:

"Ayant rencontré un avion ennemi au cours d'un essai d'appareil n'a pas hesite a descendre en l'empechant de rejoindre ses lignes et assurant ainsi la prise de l'appareil"

"Having met an enemy plane during a flying test has not hesitated to attack preventing it from reaching its lines and allowing the capture of the device"

(Source:Carré d'as de Jacques mortane)

Cordialement
Bruno

Thanks again Bruno. THe other info you sent me by PM was very helpful also. I'll be in touch again shortly. HAve a very joyous new year across the pond! Now al I need is an OCR program which will read handwriting well!

Don

[wacoavn]

Thanks for suppling the link to the journal des marches for GB-2. This is fantastic!

I also got my "Over the Front issue" with the N-124 material by Alan Toelle. He did a great job lacing together the primary sources from the pilots with military records and other supporting material.

I am happy he has made use of the Havaland photo collection which just surfaced in the past two years, as well as the Rockwell and Flammer material he gathered.

His attention to detial with the photos and their content, as well as covering disconnects between accounts and records was well done.

I stayed up late pouring over the White-Faced Cow piece and I think I may be able to provide a little more detail on the issue identified surrounding Lufbery's confirmed kills on July 30 and 31, 1917. I don't know that I can resolve it, but I think I can provide a couple of more sources which might point in one direction or the other. Stay tuned.

[Froggy]

Originally Posted by Rittmeister

! Now al I need is an OCR program which will read handwriting well!

Don

DON feel free to ask me any help about french translation (included
poor quality handwriting .......if necessary )

Happy new year
and whish that your project concerning Charles Nungesser can be realized in 2010

Cordialement
Bruno