Roden's Box Art For 477/17

[BobPhil]

Friends,

Seeing the new box art for Roden's 1/32 Triplane, 477/17, I got to thinking about those photos of MvR's Triplanes taken at Lechelle in March of 1918. I've seen 127/17,477/17,and 425/17, was 152/17 taken there also?If the photo of 477/17 (box art) was taken at Lechelle, it shows the aircraft only partially red and the Iron crosses being converted to the straight sided ones,127/17 was also shown at Lechelle also only partially painted red,yet, 425/17 also taken at Lechelle was totally red and retained Iron crosses at this time,was this MvR's main crate?or if the all red aircraft with the Iron crosses was 477/17 when and why was the aircraft painted all red yet revert back to the Iron crosses? MvR scored 10 victories with 477/17 and flew it till mid April 1918, was this his main crate till he flew the all red 425/17? and was 425/17 just sitting around Lechelle, not being flown for almost a month?

Just my musings.......Bob....

[Dan_San_Abbott]

My Friend BobPhil:
I shall make some statements, then ask a few questions.
1. Fok.DR.I 152/17 was last flown by MvR on 18 March 1918 It has been reported that it was disassembled and shipped to Berlin to be displayed in the Berlin Zeughaus. Fok. DR.I 152/17 last flew out Avenes-le-Sec. Fok.DR.I 152/17 never flew out of Le Chelle.
2. MvR first scored with Fok.DR.I 477/17 on 24 March 1918, flying from Awoingt Airfield. MvR flew Fok. DR.I 477/17at least on 24 March, 25 March, 26 March, 27 March, 28 March, 2 April,7 April 1918.
3. MvR first scored with Fok.DR.I 127/17 on 27 March 1918 flying out of LeChelle Airflied. Last scored with Fok.DR.I 127/17 on 6 April 1918. Flew Fok.DR.I 127/17 at least 3 times, 27 March, 28 March and 6 April 1918.
4. The first record of Fok.DR.I 425/17 is on 20 April 1918 at Cappy Airfield. The last record is on 21 April 1918 when MvR was shot down. There is no record of Fok.DR.I 425/17 ever being at any of the previous airfields that MvR flew from.
If Fok.DR.I 425/17 was at Avenes-le-Sec, Awoingt and LeChelle airfields, why did MvR not fly this machine instead of Dr.I 127/17 and Dr.I 477/17?
Or, was Fok.DR.I 425/17 in reserve at Armee Flugpark 2 during this period?
The photographs taken on 26 March 1918, of the over painted Fok.DR.I with white bordered Iron Crosses at Le Chelle Airfield in front of the Bessonneau hangars. How can this machine be Fok.DR.I 425/17? Or is it Fok.DR.I 477/17?
I would very much like to see answers to those questions!
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[BobPhil]

Friends,especially,Dan-San,

The reason why the box art of 477/17 caught my attention was the alterations to the crosses,Iron cross to straight sided, and the lack of further red painting to the aircraft. The all red Dr1 at Lechelle,with the iron crosses was labled as 425/17 on the photos. I know a difference of opinion exists over this aircraft as to 477/17 or 425/17. Getting back to the box art and a photo of 477/17 in these markings, I was wondering why they would paint this aircraft all red and revert back to the Iron crosses when the more recent modification of the crosses was already undertaken. Ideas?

Thanks friends...deep blue skies Dan........Bob

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Bobphil:
In the previous posting, I stated the chronology of Fok.DR.I machines MvR flew and when. The only machines MvR flew in combat at Le Chelle were, Fok.DR.I 127/17 and 477/17. All the photos taken there, were of these two machines. Fok.DR.I 425/17 was somewhere, but there is no record that MvR ever flew Fok. DR.I 425/17 before 20 April 1918.
The problem is this, there is a set of "English translated" MvR combat reports that gives the coloring of Fok.Dr.I 127/17 and Fok.DR.I 477/17 the same as Fok. Dr.I 152/17. The believe the translations to be correct, I don't, there are some problems with these translations, the form of the dates are in correct as is the format and some of the text. To make matters worse, there is no record of the origin of these translations, who, where, when were these translation made, and where are the originals. I look at them as better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick!
To answer you question, both Dr.I 477/17 and 425/17 were painted ALL RED, with the exception of the rudder on Dr.I 477/17 was later painted white on some date after 26 March 1918 when Dr.I 477/17 photographed in front of the Hangar at LeChelle.
Very blue skies to you my friend,
Dan-San

[BobPhil]

Dan-San,

Thank you for your post, I see the delirium these combat reports can cause( reliable or not), but Dan-san, getting back to 477/17 at Lechelle, there are two photographs of this machine. One is as the Roden box art and the other is the all red iron crossed one. My question is why would they paint 477/17 all red and yet revert back to the iron crosses? The box art (based on a photo taken at Lechelle, shows the aircrat crosses being modified to the straight sided crosses, a more up to date version so why revert to the iron crosses?

As ever...Deep blue skies..........Bob....

[Dan_San_Abbott]

BobPhil:
I can only surmise the answer. The order for the Cross change was issued on 17 March 1918, right at the time of Operation Michael preprarations. Jage Nr.1 was based at Avenes-le-Sec Airfield. MvR was involved in discussions with the Leaders of the all the Jastas under his command.(Northen half of the German 2.Armee.) For instance he borrowed a Fok.Dr.I from Jasta 6 to fly over to Jasta 5 for a discussions with Oblt. Richard Flashar, Gruja 2. The question is why didn't MvR use his own machine?
I think that Fok.Dr.I 477/17 was being painted for him, may have been disassembled? In any event he borrowed a machine. On 18 March, MvR flew Fok.DR.I 152/17. It was reported that on the 18 or 19th it was shipped to Berlin for display in the Zeughaus. During the afternoon of 20 March Jage.Nr.1 moved to Awoingt, near Cambrai. On 21 March 1918 the Battle of France started. It is not known what MvR flew between 21 to 23 March, maybe Fok.DR.I 477/17? On 24 March MvR scored a victory, his 67th. On 25 March, again flying Fok.DR.I 477/17, MvR scored his 68th victory. On the 26 of March, Jage.Nr.1 moved to Lechelle Airfield on parked his Fok.DR.I 477/17 in front of the end Bessoneau hangar, withthe rest of the machines lined up in front of the hangars. On this date, 26 March 1918, and a couple of days more, some German photographer took many pictures of Jage.Nr.1. On the 26th he took the two shots of MvR's all dark red Fok.Dr.I 477/17. In subsquent photos the crosses were changed to the balken kreuze.
If you look at the panarama photo,(26 March 1918) in the foreground, Jasta 6 Triplanes have mixed crosses. The change had to be completed no later than 4 April 1918 as required by Idflieg.
Very blue skies my good friend,
Dan-San

[BobPhil]

Dan-San,


Again, thank you for your responce. So, although 477/17 was undergoing cross modification, (before being painted all red with iron crosses) they disregarded the modifications and reverted to the older style cross while painting 477/17 red. Well it seems strange to me that they would do that, any last opinion Dan-san?

P.S. that little project you so very kindly helped me with will be up and ready for Dayton, I believe I'll own the only one and wouldn't that make a nice impact on all?

As Always.....Deep Blue Skies.......Bob

[Dan_San_Abbott]

BobPhil:
Sad to say I would be able to make it to Dayton and the OTF Meeting in Seattle. I chose to go to Seattle to OTF meeting. Because of the New Museum. I have seen the AF Museum at Dayton. Now if some of my plans work out, my future finances would let attend both in style.
Bluest skies to you my friend.
Dan-San

[RAGIII]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Bobphil:
Fok.DR.I 425/17 was somewhere, but there is no record that MvR ever flew Fok. DR.I 425/17 before 20 April 1918.
Very blue skies to you my friend,
Dan-San

Dan, as you say 425/17 had to be somewhere, and the evidence of the crosses being altered to the new forms twice with Red and white suggest that it was being used or held in reserve for MvR. This is a very interesting thread and does lend some suggestion that the LaChelle bird in overall Red is indeed 425/17 in spite of the records. Just my Humble Opinion.
RAGIII
PS. Although the pics described in the beginning of this thread are captioned 477/17, do any actually show the Number?

[Dan_San_Abbott]

RagsIII:
There are no known records to establish that Fok.DR.I 425/17 was EVER at Le Chelle airfield. However, MvR's combat reports absolutely establish that Fok.DR.I 477 WAS at LeChelle airfield.
The photographs of the Fok.DR.I 477/17 in front of the end hangar, painted all red with black Iron Crosses, edged in white, indicates this machine was painted before 17 March 1918, when the Idflieg directive was issued to change the crosses to the straight balken cross. My intuition tells me that MvR was notified sometime before 18 March 1918,that Fok.DR.I 152/18 was going to be sent to Berlin on 18 March 1918, and he had Fok.DR.I 477/17 prepared for him and had it painted ALL red, around or about, 10 March 1918, This event occurred while at Avenes-le-Sec airfield. This was done so that he would be able to use this machine when Fok.DR.I 152/17 was shipped to Berlin. This is a surmized!
There are no known records that Fok.DR.I 425/17 WAS EVER at Avenes-le-Sec, Awoingt or LeChelle airfields.
The ONLY record of Fok.DR.I 425/17 was at Cappy Airfield from 20 April 1918. However, the fact remains that the machine was painted all red with a white rudder at sometime prior to 20 April 1918. Allowing one week for painting, Fok.DR.I 425/17 was selected on or about 13 April 1918 for MvR to be painted all red.
All the photographs of the all red Fok.DR.I at Le Chelle airfield were in FACT Fok.DR.I 477/17.
Blue skies,
Dan-San