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Camouflage and Markings Topics related to the camouflage and markings of WWI aircraft

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Old 9 July 2005, 09:20 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Munsell Test

Jan, testing the software for reliability of conversion is difficult. Gretag Macbeth publishes a disclaimer where they state that they do not support the freeware, so they can't be responsible for the accuracy of the conversion numbers. I have the most recent download (version 6.5.1) and the "about" dialog provides the name of the engineer at GMB who wrote the app -- so at least we have someone to go to if we run into a real problem.

A real-world test would involve using the app to convert a set of Munsell code to CMYK, printing the CMYK output on a profiled printer, then comparing the output to Munsell reference chips under controlled lighting conditions. I don't have the reference chips and acquiring them would be expensive.

I'm going to proceed under the assumption that the Gretag Macbeth freeware makes accurate conversions. Since the program author is also a GMB employee, we have to assume he is actively working in this area and knows what he's doing. After we've produced some results, perhaps we can contact him, explain how we're using his program and get his input on the accuracy of our results.

One final thought, we also have to assume that whoever created the Munsell codes for the Methuen plates did an accurate job. I think there's a greater chance that the Methuen-Munsell conversion codes may be slightly off in some cases than that the Munsell freeware is inaccurate.

The joy of working with color
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Old 9 July 2005, 09:51 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Let's Get Started Then

Dan, let's start this project by working up reference sheets for the 5-color day pattern, beginning with the darker upper-surface colors. I have reviewed your WWI Aero article and you provide a table with Methuen values for this fabric. There are multiple codes for each color, though, so please confirm that I'm reading this correctly.

It looks like the table shows a Methuen range for two different samples ("Two Cloth Samples" and the "Standard Ref"). So for the Honey Yellow/Bronze color we have:
Two Cloth Samples - Honey Yellow/Bronze
Methuen Code Range - 5D6 to 5E6
Standard Ref - Honey/Yellow
Methuen Code Range - 4D6 to 5D6
Am I interpreting the table correctly?

Also, I'm familiar with the WWI Aero Symbol system for keying the colors to the correct lozenge (using letters A - E) but what is the significance of the number give in the first column? Or the letter given in the first column of the lower-surface colors?
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Old 9 July 2005, 02:16 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Printed fabrics.

Patrick:
Part 1.
Since writing the article in WW1 Aero, No129, August 1990, the data has been revised, and a "new" five color upper day pattern was discovered. This new pattern has values and colors close the the upper 4 color pattern. So what now have in the German printed fabrics is:
1.Five color upper day pattern very dark.
2.Five color upper day pattern dark.
3.Five color lower day pattern.
4.Five color overall night pattern.
5.Four color upper day pattern.
6.Four color lower day pattern.
7.Three color Naval printed fabrics.
On several different aircraft in 1917, the Item 3, five color lower pattern fabric was used as a top fabric with plain unprinted linen used on the under surfaces. The Item 1 was used by Pfalz Flugzeugwerke as a top fabric on the Pfalz D.IIIa, D.VIII and the D.XII. In some instances plain unprinted fabric was used on the undersurface.
Item 2 above, was used on most aircraft in 1918 as a top fabric with item 3 lower printed fabric.
During my study of fabric sample from German aircraft, I found the fabric distorted, so I measured fabric samples loaned to me. Prior to any measurement being made I squared the sample on my drawing table to put the fabric sampled into the condition as it was when woven and printed. The purpose was to ensure the shape and location of the polygons were correct.
I made 1/12.5 scale patterns and full size patterns of the four and five color patterns. The polygons on the five color pattern were identified A through E,and 1 through 4 on the four color pattern.
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Old 9 July 2005, 03:03 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Dan, lets treat each of the seven patterns separately, starting with 1 -- Five color upper day pattern very dark.

For each color in this pattern, please provide the following:
a. Color Name (Honey Yellow, etc.)

b. Methuen Code or two Methuen Codes to indicate a range.

c. The polygon position code letter (A - E) following the convention you established in the WWI Aero No. 129 article.
I'll also incorporate your comments on usage, for example for this pattern --

Quote:
Item 1 was used by Pfalz Flugzeugwerke as a top fabric on the Pfalz D.IIIa, D.VIII and the D.XII. In some instances plain unprinted fabric was used on the undersurface.
With this information, I can create a reference sheet that captures all the information (I've got a format in mind for this). I'll post it here for review & comment. When we've arrived at something that we all agree is the best that we can do, we'll move on to the next pattern.

thx!

Patrick
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Old 9 July 2005, 03:11 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Part 2.

Patrick:
Item 1. Five color day upper pattern, very dark.
letter color Methuen Code.
A. Dark blue 20F5
B. Dark Purple 16E5
C. Blackish blue 20G6
D. Dull green 30E5
E. Leather Brown 6E6

Item 2. Five color day upper pattern, dark.
A. Oriental blue 22D5
B. Greyish magenta 15D4
C. Greyish blue 23F7
D. Dull green 25D3
E. Dark blonde 5D4

Item 3. Five color day lower pattern.
A. Oriental blue 22D5
B. Greyish magenta 15D4
C. Dull green 25D3
D. Greyish ruby 15D5
E. Ochre 5C6
Item 4. Five color all over night pattern.
A. Greyish blue 22D7
B. Greyish violet 17E5
C. Dark blue 23E8
D. Prussian blue 21F7
E. Blackish blue 21F4
End of Part 2.
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Old 9 July 2005, 08:00 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Dan, for the Five color day upper pattern, very dark you call for:

C. Blackish blue 20G6

The Methuen tables only have six columns, A - F. No G. Typo?
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Old 9 July 2005, 10:56 PM   #17 (permalink)
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First Attempt

Here's a quick first attempt at converting the Methuen codes provided by Dan San Abbott. The pattern is 5 Color Day Upper Pattern, Dark. The lozenge template is based on the diagram provided by Mikesh for the NASM Alb. One sample is straight RGB colors, the other has a fabric texture mapped onto it to give a better idea of how the colors would look on fabric. If these look right, I'll proceed with developing a reference card set for this pattern.

Comments? Are these colors even close? IMHO, I think the green looks a little too gray . . .
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Day Upper Dark-1.jpg (45.1 KB, 306 views)
File Type: jpg Day Upper Dark w Texture-1.jpg (45.2 KB, 307 views)
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Old 10 July 2005, 10:18 AM   #18 (permalink)
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DSA-Five Color Day Lower Pattern

Here's the first result for the Five Color Day Lower Pattern. I noted that Dan San Abbott's color picks matched quite closely to the results published for the NASM Alb restoration. Not exact matches, but definitely in the same range. As if the NASM colors came from factory-fresh fabric & Dan's came from fabric flown under field conditions for a few months.

I've included the NASM samples here for comparison. The first two images are of Dan San Abbott's Five Color Lower Pattern; the first image is plain RGB color, the second has a fabric texture mapped onto it.

The second pair of images is the same Five Color Lower pattern, but with the colors used by NASM.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSA-Day Lower-1-20050710.jpg (46.7 KB, 214 views)
File Type: jpg DSA-Day Lower-1T-20050710.jpg (41.4 KB, 206 views)
File Type: jpg NASM-Day Lower-1-20050710.jpg (46.9 KB, 201 views)
File Type: jpg NASM-Day Lower-1T-20050710.jpg (43.9 KB, 167 views)
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Old 10 July 2005, 03:42 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Scanned Methuen Handbook?

Patrick:
I have a feeling you scanned copy of the Methuen Hand book is not quite up to snuff. The color values you have are not correct.
In the text of the Methuen Handbook there is a discussion of the color black and the extrapolation of codes beyond "F". The black depicted on the color charts is about a coal black, There are some colors in "Alphabetical List of Names (of Colour) are defined in column G and H and are not illustrated in the Handbook. I would suggest you get a copy of the names and Colour names for Plate 1 through Plate 30. They are essential.
I think you have missed what I wish to do. I have neither the time or desire to repeat all the work I have done in getting to where I am. As it is there are sme days I am involved with the Forum 7 or 8 hours. I don't have the time to spare.
What I had asked Jan to do is put the color chip with RBG values on the screen on specific aircraft. Also I had intended to go through all th printed fabrics and establish the color chip with the RBG values. The ultimate purpose here is for decal manufacturer or whoever, wants to get it right, he can refer to the specific chart and he has his answers.
I do not want to get into a discussion of various fabric samples.
Please d not be offended, that is not my intent, I only wish to set the program on the desired course. Please send me your mailing address, I 'll send you a copy of my 4 and 5 color pattern.
Blue skies,
Dan-San
P.S. I have a VERY full plate, I am working on the Albatros Aircraft CD, shortly to start a biography of the Major General Young Sen-yat, the first Commander of the Republic of China Air Force and Lt.Col. Harry W.Abbott, the second Commander of the RoCAF. all; that along with other projects that pop up unexpectedly.
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Old 10 July 2005, 04:23 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Item No.2 Five Color printed fabrics.

Patrick:
I did a disservice to you, I was loooking at the thumbnails, when I should have blown them up and printed them. They look pretty damned good. I noticed you also textured the upper and lower patterns. That is essential, otherwise the colors would be too dark.
I have just checked the results with Alan Toelle's colors for this pattern, and we have some adjusting to do. I'll get back to you.
Do you have http://www.wwi-models.org/misc/Colors/German/loz/Allan_T.html This is were we need to go.
Blue skies,
Dan-San
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